Lemmy: bOth PArTiES ARE zIoniSt gEnociDERS!
To hear the tankies on Lemmy:
OnLy DEmoCraTs aRe ZiOnisT GeNOCiderS! VotE fOr RepUBLicaNs!
The amount of intellectual dishonesty I hear out of tankies is insane. The second you call them out, they ban you and delete your comments.
“I haven’t seen a single screenshot to back up their accusations of us!” yeah no shit
What leftist has suggested voting for Trump? Ever?
Literally anyone holding Harris’s feet to the fire right now of all moments, when the outcome of the election depends on it. You win the election first, you moderate your demands until then, and then you raise the volume on your calls for change.
Because only one of those two candidates has quite literally suggested arresting and deporting ALL protesters. Undermining the only person who can prevent him from getting to the office that would enable that shit is just as bad if not worse than actually just quietly voting for him.
So the answer is nobody, nobody has suggested voting for Trump, and you want people to hold their tongues about ongoing genocide.
Can you give me an example of this? It’s so ubiquitous it can be generalized, so surely it will be easy!
It’s in nearly every single thread they are present in. They constantly attack Harris, and never mention Trump’s stance.
Everybody knows Trump’s stance. The reason we attack Harris is because a certain number of her sycophants are under the delusion that she will somehow be good for the Palestinians.
And yet you don’t show any examples for your bizarre claim. I swear y’all have more issues with the left than with fascists.
The reason many leftists don’t mention Trump is because there’s already consensus that he’s an awful person and a wannabe fascist dictator.
“if you don’t vote for the good genocider, the bad genocider will get into office. And he is RUDE!”
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What fucking tankies are you listening to? Brother I’m tankie as shit and we don’t support Trump, we merely point out the uncomfortable truth that on this issue there is no meaningful difference between the Dems and the Reps, and so anyone voting for them is a genocide supporter.
Jesus, I’ve had this argument recently. Pointless, they are just on some crusade.
They both are objectively Zionist genocide supporters. The only difference is the tone of their rhetoric, the children will die all the same.
says who?
Is the only “non zionist genocide supporter” position that israel needs to cease existence tomorrow?
According to tankies, the only “non-zionist genocide supporter” position is actually the ethnic cleansing of Israeli Jews.
they engage in binary extremism, anything short of THIS particular outcome is unacceptable by any amount, and anything that isn’t this is quite literally fascist nazi genocide of an entire group of people (who arguably might not even exist in significant capacity) granted i don’t know much about the middle east, but i’d have to guess Palestinians are pretty similar to the average arab. But i could be completely wrong lol.
Even if that were true, there’s a value proposition to work through here. Like most sane people, I typically prioritize my own children and the children of people I know over people in a country on the other side of the planet I will never interact with and whose fate will never affect in the slightest. That’s just basic triage.
This is not to say I don’t care about them, but looking at it from a purely pragmatic stance, it’s not an issue that’s going to change my position am inch on who to vote for in this election.
All these people are convinced that Trump would be worse for Palestinians.
And maybe they’re right, maybe Trump will send in straight up death squads. Maybe he’ll build vans that pipe the exhaust into the cargo area and ship them to tel Aviv. Maybe he’ll start sending the Israelis Zyclon b.
But the fact remains. The last year has been the most deadly for Palestinians. Ever. More Palestinians have been killed in the last year than died during the formation of the state of Israel. More Palestinians have had their homes destroyed in the last year, then ever before in modern history.
At this point, saying Trump would be worse for Palestine is like saying that Himmler would have been worse for the Jews. Possibly technically correct, but also a poor attempted genocide denial.
Trump feels the only thing Israel is doing wrong is not killing Palestinians fast enough.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-biden-israel-pr-hugh-hewitt-21faee332d95fec99652c112fbdcd35d
Worse, if Trump wins, he will bring the worst Israeli policies to the United States.
- He will take Israel’s policy of illegally invading Lebanon as a “security zone” and apply it to Mexico:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_Southern_Lebanon
- He will set up internment camps in the United States for immigrants and others classed as “undesirable”:
- He will purge the government of any and all opposition:
- He wants to arrest journalists:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/06/politics/kash-patel-trump-administration/index.html
To be clear here, if Harris does not win, Trump will. Those are your two choices. You can choose to vote for Harris or you court disaster. There is no viable 3rd choice.
Ok.
More Palestinians killed than in 1948. But, we can’t criticize the administration committing a holocaust, we can’t say anything negative about Hitler because “Himmler would be even worse”
I still remember when you shitlibs said “WHATABOUTISM” was bad, now you use it unironically to defend ethnic cleansing.
We absolutely can criticize the administration committing a holocaust… The ISRAELI administration.
you realize trump genuinely considered using a nuclear bomb during his office term right?
What do you mean “he might be worse”
But the fact remains. The last year has been the most deadly for Palestinians. Ever.
also i feel like there was probably at least one famine that killed significantly more people at one point in history.
Not only considered using a nuke, but wanted to use a nuke to put out a hurricane…
https://www.axios.com/2019/08/25/trump-nuclear-bombs-hurricanes
this ones a classic, i always forget about it lmao
If Donald Trump had the faintest fucking clue what any of that was he would be getting very excited…
Thank goodness it looks like he will lose.
Now, can we talk about the current administration enabling, supporting, and funding the worst ethnic cleansing the middle east has seen in centuries?
Tbh the Syrian civil war saw 6 hundred thousand people killed and 14 million more people displaced
I guess you might have forgotten because that’s already 0,1 centuries ago
So, assuming Kamala wins and that Israel continues escalating in the West Bank, in a year or two when the death count finally hits 600,001, you will finally allow criticism of your golden girl?
Your golden girl can go drink lukewarm shit from a baby bottle
I’m just saying you’re flaunting hyperlatives without the faintest clue because you’ve been Kony’d to your keyboard
Hey, I wonder despite all that if Hamas regrets Oct. 7th?. [checks news] Nope.
Gaza was am open air prison before the October 7th attacks. Prisoners might have a bad time after a prison riot, but such actions dont happen without context.
Clearly violence on innocents is justified then /s
Al-Aqsa flood was a fully legitimate and legal attack against an occupying force. You might as well ask the Polish Jews if they regret the Warsaw Uprising.
Innocent civilians are not an occupying force.
When they’re the people who’ve stolen your homes and land, they are.
And anyone that thinks that is a terrorist. See how easy it is to spout BS to avoid taking responsibility for evil actions?
My position is the position of international law. Hamas had and has every right to attack Israel, Israel does not and did not have the right to attack Palestine.
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man the internet fucking sucks now
No, just ML fascists and their alts.
yeah, and they’re the reason why lmao
just wait til you see what trump does.
At this point, saying Trump would be worse for Palestine is like saying that Himmler would have been worse for the Jews. Possibly technically correct, but also a poor attempted genocide denial.
More have died and more have been made refugees, in the last year; than during the Nakba. This has been the deadliest year for Palestinians, by an order of magnatude, in modern history.
So take your “Trump would be worse” bullshit. Wrap it in sandpaper. And shove it up your ass.
So we agree: both sides of this election support the ongoing genocide being committed by Israel.
do you want more genocide or less genocide?
Seems like the genocide is already accelerating, so this is also a false choice. Either way it will be more.
I’m not saying “don’t vote for Harris” nor am I saying “don’t vote at all”. I support Harris, but pretending she doesn’t support Israel’s genocide or she’ll somehow slow it down is just ignorant of reality.
We are watching the destruction of the Palestinian people in real time and the people able to stop it are entirely unwilling to care.
you are completely ignoring Trump’s track record vis a vis Israel and Palestine. He has been much more fanatical in his support of Israel than any other president, even other republican presidents. For example:
- moved the American embassy to Jerusalem
- has never once uttered the words “cease fire”, only called for Israel’s “victory”
- has never lamented any Palestinian deaths at all
- reversed US’s position on Israeli settlements in Palestine (which Biden has again reversed to the original position in accordance with international law)
Give me an answer other than “Trump is worse”. Of course he is.
This is about how Harris could be better. She could be pushing for sanctions on Israel. She could be saying she’ll stop supplying the genocide. She could acknowledge that the genocide is a genocide.
She does none of these things because she doesn’t care.
Yes, vote for her (I will be), but acknowledge that the lesser of two evils is still evil.
Inb4 “I wAnT nO gEnOcIdE” like it’s some kind of clever gotcha response that shows anything but their whole white bougie kid politics having ass.
I want you to stop pretending that she’ll do anything to even slow it down. I encourage you to vote for her and Walz because it serves our country better than Trump and the couch fucker, but admit that the two parties’ positions on Palestine are materially the same. We can’t change anything until we acknowledge the problem.
Under Kamala I think we have the possibility of seeing a Netanyahu free Israel, with leadership making more sober decisions.
Because not stopping a roll towards a wall is exactly the same as hitting the fucking accelerator.
Your politics would see us Palestinians all massacred on the altar of “well the dems would have been the same anyways!”
which side is against it?
I want zero genocide
The Democrats want genocide
The Republicans want genocide
I want zero genocide
me too, but that’s not an option.
so, are you going to vote for more genocide, or less genocide?
Let’s put this in perspective. bibi and Isreal is committing Genocide. Genocide has happened and is still happening. Americans have provided weapons of war and continue to provide weapons of war to Isreal as they have all their allies. The only thing America has failed to do is pressure bibi to stop. Do they have that power? I wouldn’t know. Some people claim to know.
In 2024 we aren’t voting for genocide. We are voting for candidates all claiming to know the exact right thing to do on this particular issue. Will any of this result in turning back the clock on what’s been done? No. Should the united states president be able to midgate the continued conflict? Possibly.
I’m going to remind everyone again. America is not the world police. You don’t want them as the world police. You can continue your campaign against the democrats all you want but please. I beg you. Look at who your allies are in that fight. bibi himself would cum his pants to see the orange dictator take office.
Which side is less genocide?
Remember, The number of dead, The number of refugees, And the number of destroyed buildings, all outnumber what occured in 1948. By several times.
This is the worst ethnic cleansing the region has seen in centuries. Even Saddam racked up less kills when he was gassing Kurds.
that’s not an option
Why?
Okay but it doesn’t seem like that’s a viable option right now
It is a viable option. There is nothing preventing the Democrats from opposing genocide
Biden could do so tomorrow. Harris could then continue that policy
What send more?
the guy who:
- moved the American embassy to Jerusalem
- has never once uttered the words “cease fire”
- has never lamented any Palestinian deaths at all
- reversed US’s position on Israeli settlements in Palestine
yeah, more.
So just like what is happening now.
- won’t hold israel accountable for war crimes
- won’t allow UN to step in
- continue to keep aid from going in
Again how can it get worse for those in Gaza?
If you genuinely don’t think a Trump Presidency could make the situation any worse, you have no right to talk over anyone who’s actually been paying the miniscule-est amount of attention it would take to know better.
Signed, a Palestinian American.
Fuck your privileged ass trying to justify letting us burn.
Try me. How does it get worse than famine, constant bombings, plague, and now polio.
Ignoring what’s happening now doesn’t help anything.
Do you think it’ll get better for those in Ukraine if Trump became king?
famously part of Gaza?
Again how can it get worse for those in Gaza?
this isn’t complicated. more of literally everything.
What’s worse than a genocide we’re allowing to happen…
I’m sure you can use your imagination.
amazing rebuttal
You have the right to ask how things get better for Palestinians if Harris takes office. While you’re at it please take time to ask how do things get better for Americans if trump takes office. The US president doesn’t just set the tone for Palestine. They have influence all over the world.
If Harris wins and the day after the election Isreal signs a treaty won’t you just think for a second what that means
Edit: at the very least acknowledge bibi would like nothing more then to see donald trump in the white house, coward.
BUT WHAT ABOUT
The top level comment this is all from is
Lemmy: bOth PArTiES ARE zIoniSt gEnociDERS!
None of your argument is refuting that.
Then again not expecting much in a meme community*****___*
send more AND put you in jail for protesting that he’s sending more
Did you not watch this administration support and give more funding to the cops who beat up campus protesters?
Is that supposed to be a whataboutism? You mean the same administration that launched a national database for police misconduct? That one? They’re funding STATE cops? how? Or do you mean the feds beating up protesters like that time trump sent Homeland Security to abduct protesters off the street and detain them without charges, did The Biden admin do that too at some point because if they did I must have missed it. So what is your point exactly, that we should enable fascists because why fight it if bOtH SiDeS ArE thE SaME?
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Did you not read the articles or watch clips of Trump threatening to deport college kid protestors? People who are commonly citizens…
Did you not watch police protect neo Nazis while they stormed student encampments, and later beat those same students themselves for daring to oppose genocide?
Lancet reports, conservatively, 200k Palestinian deaths. That is more dead than 1948. And you want me to vote for the party that supplied every one of those bombs.
Biden says the same stuff as Kamala…
I’m sure she’ll handle it better than Biden, and absolutely better than trump would.
But I just don’t think she’ll do enough, which is disappointing because “enough” is just cutting off aid money and weapons sales until they stop actively committing a genocide.
If they need aid to defend against Lebanon or Iran in an actual war, maybe they should stop committing a genocide at the same time?
Really seems like if Israel was actually concerned with defense, they wouldn’t spend so much time bombing refugees.
cutting off aid money and weapons sales
I don’t understand this line of thinking.
First, Israel doesn’t need top-tier modern weapons to attack a defenseless civilian population. If Israel’s goal was outright genocide as it’s being put, they could buy mid-tier weapons from any manufacturer for that purpose.
Second, if the US stops selling US-grade weapons to Israel, that will signal to the region that Israel is open to military attacks, which might result in a larger scale multi-country war that would dwarf the Gaza conflict.
Those that care about the lives of innocent civilians in the region should prefer that the weapons sold to Israel come with Western strings attached and conditions as part of the weapons agreements, and should also care that the region doesn’t descend into another 1960s-70s war era but with more modern and powerful weapons.
See on US weapons:
The U.S. expects every country receiving its military assistance to use it “in full compliance with international humanitarian law and the laws of war, and Israel is no exception,” State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller told a news briefing on Monday.
Enforcing the Western weapons rules is politically complex, but not having any rules on those weapons would only embolden Israel’s operation in Gaza. I hope people around here will come to understand that every time you call for the US to pull out of weapon deals in Israel, what you are advocating for is to remove the weapons restrictions the West imposes on Israel.
Israeli has been a belligerent country who has not stopped terrorizing their neighbors since their formation. Zionists created Israel through a campaign of terror against British mandate Palestine and continue it to this day against Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iran.
Why are we supporting a country who does not want peace with their neighbors? They claim to be defending themselves by preemptively attacking any country that so much sneezes on them. Israel has even attacked the United States on many occasions.
If they want to be belligerent bullies in the region, they should have to do it on their own without dragging the US and it’s allies into yet another middle eastern conflict.
They even assassinated the leader Hamas while they were negotiating a ceasefire. Does that sound like a peaceful country?
Bar Palestine, where they want to annex the West Bank, Israel would be more than happy with a live and let live relation. The entire reason Hamas wanted to escalate hostilities was because Israel was succeeding in just that, and they couldn’t stop it otherwise.
The other player is Iran. You should think about whether it’s right you included Jordan in your list and then why they’d help intercept Iran’s missile strike some months ago…
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Israel primarily needs bombs, and lots of them. No other country could provide Israel with bombs and planes on the scale that the US currently supplies them. A US arms embargo would force Israel to use up its current stockpiles, and could seriously affect their war effort.
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Israel has initiated all of the recent military strikes in Iran, Syria, and Lebanon and despite this, none of Israel’s neighbors, not even Iran, want escalation to a full scale conflict. The idea that they would all suddenly attack Israel following a US arms embargo is sheer fantasy.
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The US State department is imposing restrictions on Israel’s use of US weaponry? Uh, since when? They are not currently imposing any restrictions, even though they should be under the Leahy Laws, so imposing an embargo would not change Israel’s behavior in this regard whatsoever. All this talk of being “in compliance with international humanitarian law” when it comes to Israel is a total PR farce.
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Finally someone on here is actually talking about the complexities that are actually present and not just “MURDER IS BAD, DONT GIVE MURDERER GUN”
It is not just money and sale of weapons. US has been using veto power in support of Israel. Out of 89 uses of veto in the security council about 45 have been in support of Israel. US vetoed the Dec 8 resolution calling for a humanitarian aid. Givven how israel is conducting its war, how is own ministers are calling for murder and the reports from UN observers it is boggling to my mind how you can still have doubts and say “if they wanted to commit genocide”. The restrictions you are so adamant will save the Palestinian people are Flagrantly being disregarded by Israel and the US has in it’s own report said that Israel’s use of US weapons is inconsistent with humanitarian law, but since the US lacks specific evidence of specific weapons bring used so Israel is being given the benefit of the doubt. This is so bafflingto me, you don’t give benefit of the doubt to the person who is killing, you give it to the person being killed.
People will just ignore this and say your pro genocide because a lot of that “stop the genocide” people don’t seem to understand what nuance is.
Also, in case the nuance is getting lost since we don’t all get our information from the same sources,
When the US sells weapons to Israel, the purpose is to ensure peace in the region by helping them hold a line of defense against military attacks from antagonistic countries; and in the case of Hamas, for the anti-terrorism operation of removing Hamas from power in Gaza, so that Palestinians can pursue self-determination free from terrorist rule.
Also, because around these parts the echo chambers are deafening,
Most Americans are against the suffering of civilians in Gaza, but understand that under Hamas rule the Gaza people are screwed, and long-lasting peace is impossible, so there’s significant value in removing Hamas from power so that we can drive towards a better future. This is the purpose for which we continue to sell any weapons to Israel that may be used in the Gaza operation, and we use the agreements to enforce guardrails to minimize civilian casualties.
In summary, If you think the Biden admin is supporting genocide, I wanted to point out that as far as the US leadership understands it, the weapons sales are intended for the purpose of driving towards peace, minimizing civilian casualties, and improving conditions for people in the region in the long-term. Whether you agree with that vision or not.
What’s unclear is the alternative long-term solution that the “stop supporting Israel” crowd have mapped out for the region. What exactly is supposed to get better if the US pulls out and washes its hands of peace deals and weapons agreements, so that Israel and Hamas can double down on bombing each other to the last drop of blood?
Someone explain to me the 10 year plan that the “stop selling weapons” side has envisions for the Gaza region. Because I know Harris wants to end the war, rebuild Gaza, and force a permanent peace by leading international negotiations for Palestinian statehood. I cannot imagine a workable pathway that’s more pro peace and pro civilians.
It seems to me like you are trying to make people be pro Harris. It is not a question, ah least for me, between the two options for us president Harris to my mind is the clearly better one. Your entire argument on weapons assumes that Israel is defending itself when it is not and that somehow the “guardrails” are going to keep the weapons from being used offensively. Unfortunately Israel has been using the weapons offensively, the US has been supporting them knowing the weapons are being used offensively. What did the US invasion of Afghanistan achieve? When US went out of Afghanistan dis they leave a paradise behind? It is the same here, US’ presence in this conflict is empowering one party and that needs to stop. You talk about a future plan while disregarding the present. Israel’s actions need to be condemned, the war on Palestinian people stopped. Who gives a flying fuck about 10 years down the road when you are killing an entire generation, starving am entire generation.
No. Half of what you wrote is disconnected from what I’m saying. So let’s reset.
The present: Israel lives with a terrorist group next door that is constantly launching rockets at them and planning and executing genocide on the people of Israel. That needs to be addressed. Israel is sick of it and they decided to remove Hamas.
The US weapon guardrails are mainly to define what an appropriate use of each weapon type would be. Lots of the weapons provided to Israel are not allowed for use in Gaza due to the type of damage they cause deemed incompatible with the type of conflict. If the US pulled out of these weapon deals, all the weapons (bombs) that are currently banned would be on the menu to Israel. If you think Gaza is taking damage now, consider that the damage so far has been hampered through limitations imposed by the West.
The US supports protecting civilians, ending terrorism, and finding a permanent solution to this eternal animosity. We are the ones imposing limitations on war actions and weapons, and forcing in food convoys.
The fastest route is to end the Hamas rule as quickly as possible and transition to rebuilding Gaza and establishing Palestinian statehood. That’s what the US is currently working on. I have not seen anyone here propose a solution that would move faster towards enduring peace.
Whether people here are informed enough to recognize it, we are currently on the best path available towards progress in these centuries-old conflicts in the Middle East. The other half-baked low-information ideas proposed in this forum are not better than what the US is doing right now. “Just stop selling them weapons” is not only not going to work, it’s a dumb idea that would make things worse.
The future: Low information actors like the people in this forum are at fault for the situation that we are in now. These conflicts started long ago, and we prevented a resolution and made them worse with the naive calls to cease intervention. Hamas took control in the the 2000s because of people like you naively helping them on.
The only way to have a better future is to stop kicking the can down the road. And the US is not direct party to this conflict, so we can’t unilaterally do anything to change it. Again, backing out of weapons agreements would only make Israel bomb Gaza twice as hard, and then invite a larger war in the region.
You think our difference is that I’m ok with forgiving a little “genocide” from my elected officials. NO. I’m old enough to have been through several cycles of this Israel v terrorism crap. Hamas is mostly at fault for our current state of affairs, and I understand these issues enough to recognize that my elected officials are working on the best available course of action given the impossible nature of this type of eternal hate and genocidal intent from all parties towards each other in the Middle East.
You “stop the weapons” guys want some magical way to do better, save more lives and end conflicts faster. But when asked what’s the plan, we get crickets. “Just get Israel to stop and back off” is exactly how we ended up with Hamas terrorizing Gaza this century and using civilians as shields - learn the history circa 2005-7.
Today, the real plan is political, hard and messy. The “no weapons” plan has no merit, no future, and will only makes things worse. That’s why the current admin doesn’t spend much time taking advice from tiktok-tier ideas.
I want my US elected officials to protect civilians and seek to end the eternal wars in that region. That’s why I want them to ignore the no-plan ideas, and continue with the difficult work they are already doing to try to find a real and sustainable solution.
Yes, I trust Harris with the next 4 years of this situation way more than I’d trust this low-information forum. I don’t see Harris as “the better of 2 bad choices,” I see Harris as having a real plan that makes sense and is way better than any low-info ideas I’ve read here.
This might be, in truth, one of the dumbest comments I’ve ever seen.
Israel lives with a terrorist group next door that is constantly launching rockets at them and planning and executing genocide on the people of Israel. That needs to be addressed. Israel is sick of it and they decided to remove Hamas.
“Genocide on the people of Israel”? The entire “Israeli” identity is based on settler-colonial genocide. You might as well speak of the American native resistance’s “genocide on white settlers.” Just beyond idiotic. The reason, as though you seem not to know, that this “terrorist group” (Israel’s bombing not being “terrorist” of course!) constantly launches rockets at them is due to the settler-colonial occupation of their land and the war of extermination against the Palestinian people.
“We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it, that governs it by the virtue of its language and savage culture” — Moshe Sharett, second PM of Israel
What Leading Israelis Have Said
It’s a completely ridiculous and absurd idea that Israel simply has this belligerent neighbor who attacks them for no reason.
The US weapon guardrails are mainly to define what an appropriate use of each weapon type would be. Lots of the weapons provided to Israel are not allowed for use in Gaza due to the type of damage they cause deemed incompatible with the type of conflict. If the US pulled out of these weapon deals, all the weapons (bombs) that are currently banned would be on the menu to Israel. If you think Gaza is taking damage now, consider that the damage so far has been hampered through limitations imposed by the West.
Israel has the choice not to accept US weapons deals. If there were better deals on the table, they would be taken, so it’s complete nonsense to act as if conditional deals are some hamper on Israel’s genocide when, so too, we have seen them routinely violate int. law and be protected against repercussions by the US. Truly harm reduction in the extreme!
The fastest route is to end the Hamas rule as quickly as possible and transition to rebuilding Gaza and establishing Palestinian statehood. That’s what the US is currently working on. I have not seen anyone here propose a solution that would move faster towards enduring peace.
What came first was Israeli occupation and ethnic cleansing. This is the father of Hamas, and to act like this is some tumor that must be cut out for “peace” ignores that it is only a reaction to this “tumor cutting.” The US is not working towards peace. See:
1998: Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine (A/RES/53/42) | In Favor: 154 // Against: 2 (Israel & U.S.) 2000: Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine (A/RES/55/55) | In Favor: 149 // Against: 2 (Israel & U.S.) 2021: Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine (A/RES/76/10) | In Favor: 148 // Against: 9 (Israel & U.S., Australia, etc.) 2022: Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine (A/RES/77/25) | In Favor: 153 // Against: 9 (Israel & U.S., Canada, etc.)
Hamas is mostly at fault for our current state of affairs
Ignorance of history in the extreme. Again, Israeli colonialism came first. Hamas is only a reaction.
“Just get Israel to stop and back off” is exactly how we ended up with Hamas terrorizing Gaza this century and using civilians as shields - learn the history circa 2005-7.
This is wondrous! Israel backing off is when they enforce a total blockade and control travel! Who knew? As for human shields, you’ve revealed yourself as a complete charlatan, as there is simply no evidence of this practice being used by anyone other than Israel itself. [1] [2] [3]
I think the real talk is that she’s a little better than Biden, but Biden is pretty bad. It’s hard to say what she would be doing because i get the feeling she’s holding back out of desire to not undermine Biden’s policies. I’m not anticipating much change overall, though. Sadly, we’re all left watching the genocide.
I’m sure she’ll handle it better than Biden, and absolutely better than trump would.
Hoped that, but DNC killed that hope :(
If you think there’s even a chance of Kamala being as bad as Biden in this regard, you haven’t been paying attention to just how bad Biden is with Israel.
He literally has no line, and has been publicly saying for 50 years absolutely nothing would ever make him lessen his support for Israel.
And he fucking means it.
Kamala will be the same as Biden on practically every issue
Which overall, is fine.
But on this issue of genocide, is damning
what exactly do you mean by “damning”? Like you’re not going to vote for her? Because the alternative is Trump who will be even worse.
I don’t see her changing what’s currently policy, so status quo will continue.
She can’t do anything until/if she assumes office as president.
Especially with Biden as president, literally nothing else matters. He literally went around congress to avoid like a week delay.
Now she could say she’s going to be stricter on Israel, and it would probably gain some votes in the right states to have an effect.
But what would definitely happen is AIPAC would give just an unthinkable amount of money to trump.
That would 100% happen if they have the slightest doubts in the Dem party.
So like I’ve said:
She won’t be great. But she’s better than trump or Biden and we frankly have no option other than voting for her and hoping public opinion affects her position more than donor money immediately after an election.
Like I said, can hope but not that hopeful.
can you guys do me a favor real quick? I want to all google the word fascism, and do a little bit of precursory study into what the nazi fascist regime was like. Think about it for a few days.
And then come back and tell me that the democratic party is EQUAL to or WORSE than the republican party.
Trump literally fired chris krebs after he stated that the election was “the most secure in history” and then his personal attorney said he should “get taken out and shot at dawn”
he fired the guy heading the FBI over the russia election interference which he wasn’t even found to be responsible for? Though a few of his campaign members were, and they were served with felony sentences for that one. He LITERALLY LIES ABOUT THIS ENTIRE THING REPEATEDLY.
literally all the democrats are doing is supporting a country who aligns with US values. That’s objectively not fascism, and if you think it’s fascism, you should probably consider not using the internet anymore. Maybe move to russia and see how “nice” it is over there.
Media: both sides are literally the same
Lemmy: But Harris support jenoside!
She will have the same position on genocide as Biden
Apparently doesn’t matter to people here :/
She does.
And she has made clear the indigenous people of Palestine will continue to be ethnically cleansed under her administration.
At the end of the day israel is openly fucking bombing humanitarian aid at this point and we all know neither is gonna stop them when elected. The ceasefire bullshit is getting as old as the „two state solution”
Yeah, they both like their wars, and the military industrial complex has far too much power in this country. And good luck to all of us, because we need to stop these hawks from pushing their deadly agenda. They won’t give up voluntarily.
(And I’m not just referring to both candidates here.)
At least you’ll be able to protest without getting slaughtered ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
are they bombing humanitarian aid regularly now? I know that it happened at least once, with a few possible instances of it in total.
Translation:
I will send Israel more bombs.
America was locked into that in the Obama era. Israel gets massive amounts of aid.
There is more than enough legal reason to justify stopping sales to Israel but the rules are not applied equally: https://www.npr.org/2024/03/26/1240857410/how-do-leahy-laws-apply-to-u-s-support-for-israel
So it seems like they choose not to and I’m not sure if there’s a justification for that which isn’t fucking atrocious
And our presidents have been saying “two state solution” for far longer AFAIK. Frankly anybody still pushing that line in 2024 might as well just drop the mask and say what Trump is saying.
And our presidents have been saying “two state solution” for far longer AFAIK. Frankly anybody still pushing that line in 2024 might as well just drop the mask and say what Trump is saying.
man some of this rhetoric really makes you think… “you are literally as bad as a nazi if you think that complete and total end of this long running conflict/war is probably unlikely to go well”
since when was there a problem with a two state solution? Currently the issue is that there really isn’t a two state solution due to the strip repeatedly fucking itself in the ass.
Granted israel doesn’t get a clean pass here either, with all the settler bullshit they’re doing.
The problem isn’t the two-state solution on paper, it’s the fact that the notion of a two-state solution is a grift. If you believe that any US president has ever actually supported it, then I’m afraid you’ve been conned. What every US president has actually supported, judging by their actions not their words, is a one state solution, where the state in question is a fascist apartheid state.
Returning to the “two state solution” rhetoric now would mean returning to the previous status quo and never punishing Israel for their crimes.
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maybe? I would have to see some convincing evidence of this outside of just “trust me bro” regardless, this doesn’t stop me from believing in a two state solution, because it turns out i have free will and can have my own opinions, so thats cool.
I would think if any US president hadn’t supported it, there would’ve already been a war and this would no longer be a problem, but i guess your concept of support is probably closer to conspiracy so.
also edit: if you judge hitler by his actions and not his words, you’ll miss the part where he mentions killing 6 million jews
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“the middle east can’t figure their shit out”
—the civil western man after decades of colonization, coups, arming terrorists, assassinations, bombing, wars, torture, and otherwise meddling in the middle east.
thank you so much for figuring shit out for yourself, o civilized man. please update us whenever you figure out how to do literally anything without massive exploitation. it’s been a quarter millenium, we’re waiting.
Typical leftist misrepresenting the facts again.
We are looking at like, 2+ centuries of western meddling in the middle east. At a bare minimum 75 years. not just a quarter century.
It said “quarter millennium”. We’re all in agreement here
Well shit. I guess I can’t read.
Least genocidal american policy
At least it would be a fair fight.
Are you under the impression that the genocide exists in a vacuum devoid of international context?
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Racist pos
I mean, the middle East was fine until y’all fuckers came in at the beginning of the 20th century and started taking people’s countries. They were being giving to invaders like slices of pie, ya know.
Because history of the ME began in 19 hundreds
Ok then, every US citizen needs to get the fuck out of the country and give it back to the natives. The Jews lived in the middle east thousands of years ago, not 20 years ago. So, don’t pull that shit on me.
20 years ago. more like 80. So is that the line that makes finders keepers cool then? 80 years? Why 80? Will it be okay in 2 more decades? When DO property rights expire for civilizations?
Or is this whole idea of “I was here first” BS to begin with? Nahhhhh… That can’t be right. I mean, it’s not like anyone fighting today was alive when Israel was re-founded but what does that matter?
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So because a few people who cover up their strive for power with bullshit ideologies that are tangential to religion you want everyone surrounding them, innocent civilians, to die - people who have been born into these countries, who cannot leave even if they were willing to sever the ties to their beloved ones and everything they knew, children, disabled people, you just want them to die alongside - because you are sick of reading about it on the news?
Fuck you then.
Religious zealots blowing each other up and I’m the bad guy because I think they are wrong for doing it. Got it.
You’re the bad guy for assuming because a couple of dozen people in power want to blow each other’s civilians up and monger hate amongst their citizens everyone deserves to die. You’re the asshole for wanting to arm them to the teeth so that they can finally blow each other up for good. Yes, that does indeed make you the bad guy.
I don’t actually believe we should arm both sides, I’m being an asshole. I just hate the fact that people kill each other for religious bullshit. I’m so fucking sick of it.
i wonder what your opinion on the cold war is/was
Where are we supposed to deport American citizens to, exactly?
At the time he was saying to Gaza. He was saying to take Americans citizens who disagree with murdering innocent’s, and put them in the place the innocent’s are being murdered. As if that somehow would teach them something… All it would do is murder the Americans.
Edit: it was another one of those times he was showing how anti America he was
It’s a classic dog whistle. He knows exactly what he’s saying. He’s just disguised it to appear so stupid that no one will hold him accountable for it.
WISCONSIN.
No please I’ll be good
But I thought bOtH sIdEs ArE jUsT aS bAd.
No one is criticizing Harris stance on the war. It’s her promise to continue the unconditional support of Israel that’s the problem.
Is trump’s fanatical support of Isreal a problem?
Wasn’t talking about Trump.
this post is about comparing Harris to Trump.
And I’m making a comment on what people are actually critiquing Harris on. This post doesn’t capture that.
because that’s not the point, as I said.
The point of the post was to show how bad Trump is without telling the whole story?
telling the whole story would be comparing Harris’ Support for Israel with Trump’s support for Israel, which was the point of my very first response to you.
Appreciate the effort but this has too many words for a braindead felon-supporting fascist.
Has she promised to stop sending bombs?
She promised to not stop.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/harris-walz-hold-first-joint-network-tv-interview-cnn-2024-08-29/
Has the other dickwart?
Don’t think so either. Seems the US State is dedicated to genocide and it is disrespectful to pretend otherwise.
The best chance now, in my opinion, is to vote what is by far the lesser evil and than get active to either improve the parties or create a voting system that allows more than two to have realistic chances
In their moral justification, the argument of the lesser evil has played a prominent role. If you are confronted with two evils, the argument runs, it is your duty to opt for the lesser one, whereas it is irresponsible to refuse to choose altogether. Its weakness has always been that those who choose the lesser evil forget quickly that they chose evil.
-Hannah Arendt, from “Personal Responsibility under Dictatorship”, 1964
Unless you’re organizing a revolution before November, you better vote against the fascists.
I will not vote for candidates sending arms and aid to genocidal apartheid ethnostates. if the PSL is on the ballot in my state I will vote for them, otherwise it’ll probably be Stein 👍
Tankies quoting Hannah Arendt when she specifies that she’s speaking specifically about totalitarian societies, and not even dictatorships; much less actual functioning democracies. Average tankie reading comprehension. Or, in Hannah Arendt’s words from the same essay…
Those who denounce the moral fallacy of this argument are usually accused of a germ-proof moralism which is alien to political circumstances, of being unwilling to dirty their hands; and it must be admitted that it is not so much political or moral philosophy (with the sole exception of Kant, who for this very reason frequently stands accused of moralistic rigorism) but religious thought that most unequivocally has rejected all compromises with lesser evils.
You keep the fascist dogma up, buddy. It’ll save your soul someday. :)
get active to either improve the parties or create a voting system that allows more than two to have realistic chances
What does this entail? You can’t vibe parties into changing policy, they only concede what they have to. Supporting Israel benefits the US economically, as its the equivalent of an aircraft carrier on land. It cements the Petro-Dollar as the global standard, which allows the US to make tons of money. Therefore, no matter what, the DNC and GOP will support genocide.
Not the point. It’s a comment about how actions would speak louder than words.
And the post is about how words speak louder than fucking gibberish.
People selling weapons are supporting our party and don’t want to have any pangs.
If you want to make a “harm reduction” argument, don’t do it this dishonestly. You know this “heartbreaking” comment is nonsense because she has clearly said she won’t condition US support for Israel. As for “ceasefire,” she’s talking about a temporary pause, as proven by her previous “ceasefire” comment people appealed to. She does not believe in the self-determination of the Palestinian people nor a two-state solution, and to act like she does is to pure nonsense.
All you care about is words and appearances. Well, alright, where are Kamala’s words from the end of August spouting Oct. 7th atrocity propaganda and extolling Israel’s “right to defend itself”?
We get Trump’s stance on protestors, but not Kamala’s? Wondrous! If you recall, Harris put out a statement against the anti-genocide protestors in Washington (along with numerous anti-genocide protestors being arrested throughout these months) when her supporters were embarrassing themselves by saying she was against Netanyahu’s visit despite her scheduling a separate meeting and her campaign confirming her absence wasn’t a political statement.
To predict responses if they come, the flaws with the image will be ignored, and people will repeat: “do you think Trump will be better?” Probably not, but if you have to resort to genuine idiocy to say the inverse, then it seems like you truly don’t believe Trump will be much worse, and all we can take as proof is vibes and intuition. Kamala has repeatedly emphasized that she will be harder on immigration than Trump, but here of course her words can’t be believed!!
