No. Half of what you wrote is disconnected from what I’m saying. So let’s reset.

The present: Israel lives with a terrorist group next door that is constantly launching rockets at them and planning and executing genocide on the people of Israel. That needs to be addressed. Israel is sick of it and they decided to remove Hamas.

The US weapon guardrails are mainly to define what an appropriate use of each weapon type would be. Lots of the weapons provided to Israel are not allowed for use in Gaza due to the type of damage they cause deemed incompatible with the type of conflict. If the US pulled out of these weapon deals, all the weapons (bombs) that are currently banned would be on the menu to Israel. If you think Gaza is taking damage now, consider that the damage so far has been hampered through limitations imposed by the West.

The US supports protecting civilians, ending terrorism, and finding a permanent solution to this eternal animosity. We are the ones imposing limitations on war actions and weapons, and forcing in food convoys.

The fastest route is to end the Hamas rule as quickly as possible and transition to rebuilding Gaza and establishing Palestinian statehood. That’s what the US is currently working on. I have not seen anyone here propose a solution that would move faster towards enduring peace.

Whether people here are informed enough to recognize it, we are currently on the best path available towards progress in these centuries-old conflicts in the Middle East. The other half-baked low-information ideas proposed in this forum are not better than what the US is doing right now. “Just stop selling them weapons” is not only not going to work, it’s a dumb idea that would make things worse.

The future: Low information actors like the people in this forum are at fault for the situation that we are in now. These conflicts started long ago, and we prevented a resolution and made them worse with the naive calls to cease intervention. Hamas took control in the the 2000s because of people like you naively helping them on.

The only way to have a better future is to stop kicking the can down the road. And the US is not direct party to this conflict, so we can’t unilaterally do anything to change it. Again, backing out of weapons agreements would only make Israel bomb Gaza twice as hard, and then invite a larger war in the region.

You think our difference is that I’m ok with forgiving a little “genocide” from my elected officials. NO. I’m old enough to have been through several cycles of this Israel v terrorism crap. Hamas is mostly at fault for our current state of affairs, and I understand these issues enough to recognize that my elected officials are working on the best available course of action given the impossible nature of this type of eternal hate and genocidal intent from all parties towards each other in the Middle East.

You “stop the weapons” guys want some magical way to do better, save more lives and end conflicts faster. But when asked what’s the plan, we get crickets. “Just get Israel to stop and back off” is exactly how we ended up with Hamas terrorizing Gaza this century and using civilians as shields - learn the history circa 2005-7.

Today, the real plan is political, hard and messy. The “no weapons” plan has no merit, no future, and will only makes things worse. That’s why the current admin doesn’t spend much time taking advice from tiktok-tier ideas.

I want my US elected officials to protect civilians and seek to end the eternal wars in that region. That’s why I want them to ignore the no-plan ideas, and continue with the difficult work they are already doing to try to find a real and sustainable solution.

Yes, I trust Harris with the next 4 years of this situation way more than I’d trust this low-information forum. I don’t see Harris as “the better of 2 bad choices,” I see Harris as having a real plan that makes sense and is way better than any low-info ideas I’ve read here.

Also, in case the nuance is getting lost since we don’t all get our information from the same sources,

When the US sells weapons to Israel, the purpose is to ensure peace in the region by helping them hold a line of defense against military attacks from antagonistic countries; and in the case of Hamas, for the anti-terrorism operation of removing Hamas from power in Gaza, so that Palestinians can pursue self-determination free from terrorist rule.

Also, because around these parts the echo chambers are deafening,

https://www.pewresearch.org/2024/03/21/majority-in-u-s-say-israel-has-valid-reasons-for-fighting-fewer-say-the-same-about-hamas/

Most Americans are against the suffering of civilians in Gaza, but understand that under Hamas rule the Gaza people are screwed, and long-lasting peace is impossible, so there’s significant value in removing Hamas from power so that we can drive towards a better future. This is the purpose for which we continue to sell any weapons to Israel that may be used in the Gaza operation, and we use the agreements to enforce guardrails to minimize civilian casualties.

In summary, If you think the Biden admin is supporting genocide, I wanted to point out that as far as the US leadership understands it, the weapons sales are intended for the purpose of driving towards peace, minimizing civilian casualties, and improving conditions for people in the region in the long-term. Whether you agree with that vision or not.

What’s unclear is the alternative long-term solution that the “stop supporting Israel” crowd have mapped out for the region. What exactly is supposed to get better if the US pulls out and washes its hands of peace deals and weapons agreements, so that Israel and Hamas can double down on bombing each other to the last drop of blood?

Someone explain to me the 10 year plan that the “stop selling weapons” side has envisions for the Gaza region. Because I know Harris wants to end the war, rebuild Gaza, and force a permanent peace by leading international negotiations for Palestinian statehood. I cannot imagine a workable pathway that’s more pro peace and pro civilians.

cutting off aid money and weapons sales

I don’t understand this line of thinking.

First, Israel doesn’t need top-tier modern weapons to attack a defenseless civilian population. If Israel’s goal was outright genocide as it’s being put, they could buy mid-tier weapons from any manufacturer for that purpose.

Second, if the US stops selling US-grade weapons to Israel, that will signal to the region that Israel is open to military attacks, which might result in a larger scale multi-country war that would dwarf the Gaza conflict.

Those that care about the lives of innocent civilians in the region should prefer that the weapons sold to Israel come with Western strings attached and conditions as part of the weapons agreements, and should also care that the region doesn’t descend into another 1960s-70s war era but with more modern and powerful weapons.

See on US weapons:

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2023-12-11/israel-must-comply-with-laws-of-war-under-us-weapons-assistance-policy

The U.S. expects every country receiving its military assistance to use it “in full compliance with international humanitarian law and the laws of war, and Israel is no exception,” State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller told a news briefing on Monday.

Enforcing the Western weapons rules is politically complex, but not having any rules on those weapons would only embolden Israel’s operation in Gaza. I hope people around here will come to understand that every time you call for the US to pull out of weapon deals in Israel, what you are advocating for is to remove the weapons restrictions the West imposes on Israel.

It seems like we are talking about different things.

Also,

What you want to do is to flip the narrative by remaining calm, focusing on the facts, and pointing out the flaws in your opponents arguments.

We know with well-tested confidence that that does nothing for half the electorate.

I’m talking about controlling the narrative a bit more. Dems are masters at speaking ineffectively and letting the media decide the narrative. And the media spends half its time reacting to whatever outlandish thing Trump said. And Trump says the outlandish stuff on purpose to control the narrative.

So 80% of the time we are in this cycle: Trump says something insane on purpose -> media reports it like it’s half presidential and worth talking about -> Dems are asked to comment on it -> Dems try to ignore it or reply something sensible that gets buried.

The effect is this: Trump controls the narrative -> the whorish media is happy to repeat his BS and normalize him for clicks -> whatever Dems want to talk about doesn’t matter. Low effort voters see Trump and his message everywhere courtesy of the whorish media. Trump remains a viable candidate.

I’m proposing that Dems could try to join the cycle at the input level instead of the tail end. If they say some aggressive or outlandish things about Trump, they’d be trend setters at the start of the cycle instead of irrelevant at the end of it. Like what happened with the “weird” thing, when seemingly by accident the Dems landed one narrative origination that left Trump on the receiving end unable to shake it.

My point is that this shouldn’t happen by accident. The Dems should plan it as part of narrative control. Keep a schedule and say another big thing once per week. Give the media something big to talk about, keep an aggressive message on Trump and his prosecutions, crimes, terrible policies and so on. Anything that controls the narrative, puts Trump on the defensive, and makes the media spread the Dems message instead of giving Trump free publicity.

When the Dems choose not to do this, they are letting the media decide what narrative they want and the media will always prefer to go with sensationalized BS as much as possible, which usually means going over to Trump to say something insane so they have more fodder to normalize and talk about for clicks.

I think that’s a good point. I wonder if reasonable politicians should prepare a few outlandish talking points to give the media something tasty to sink their teeth into. Like do a normal interview saying normal thoughtful and nuanced things, but also throw in a couple specific wacky clickbait nuggets so the media has what they crave for their news cycle.

Like, what if Kamala had worked this into her interview: Once his criminal trials are over, I don’t think imprisonment in Attica would be appropriate for Trump as an ex president.

Leave it at that and have the media frenzy over it, even though it means nothing. Then they won’t spend as much time trying to invent drama over her interview because she gave them some drama to go with.

I think that’s what Trump is best at. Trump knows most of his base are dumb and the media are thirsty clickbait whores, so he treats his interviews with the decorum of a 2-bit bordello and ends up getting tons of attention that works for his base.

6’3" 215lbs, is what Trump claimed for the official Georgia arrest record https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-height-weight-measurements-georgia-new-york-1822430

For comparison, the same body specs as Ukrainian MMA fighter Nikita Krylov https://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Nikita-Krylov-110937#!

https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-trump-afghanistan-troops-killed-659053265479

There were 63 US military deaths in Afghanistan during the Trump administration. This piece of shit goes around saying that nobody died in that operation during his watch, and talks about how Biden cost the US THIRTEEN lives during the sundown of the Afghanistan war started by Republicans - a series of wars that go back to the first part of the century and sank the country in unimaginable debt.

Biden will be remembered for putting his foot down on the forever wars. And he will be remembered for eviscerating Russia’s military and strengthening our EU alliance, using only a fraction of the US military national budget and without putting a single American solider in harm’s way.

This piece of shit thinks that’s a bad record for Biden, and he is going to go around lying about it, pretending he is making some powerful points about which parties does most to keep us safe.

Who starts unwinnable wars? Who has a barrage of “unavoidable” incidents on their watch? From terrorist attacks to pandemics to historical financial crashes and absurd deficits, it’s always a Republican having to make excuses … “who could have thought the terrorists were plotting and attack, or that the war on terror would take decades” … “who could have known the virus wasn’t going to disappear by April like a miracle.”

Somehow the GOP that keeps us safe and is “best” at the economy are the same asswipes that can’t protect us from attacks, start wildly misguided wars, and sink us into unpayable debt planted squarely on the shoulders of our youth.

But it’s all somehow Harris’ fault now. And this piece of shit is going to tell us why by fabricating some nonsense about the Biden admin, and lying about his party’s record and his own.

Brazille was working for CNN at the time of Clinton, not ABC.

Harris is negotiating the rules of a debate she hadn’t agreed to yet since she wasn’t running for president at the time the debate was agreed to by BIDEN. Trump is also negotiating terms. Seems fair to me that they both get to negotiate for whatever they want before agreeing to final terms.

do a debate on a Conservative network

Conservative news network? WHERE? All I see on the right-wing are garbage propaganda outlets. Why would anyone serious agree to a debate at a propaganda outlet?

A debate has to happen on a real news network like ABC, CBS, PBS, NPR, AP, Reuters, CNBC or something of the like, or hosted by a neutral university or some other serious institution. The point is to try to have less BS, not more.

And I agree, if the DNC operative Brazille gave one candidate the questions ahead and not the other, that’s a major issue and she is right to be shamed for it and have been removed by CNN. Nobody wants to see that favoritism crap, which is also the reason we can’t have the debate at Fox or any other trash-tier outlet either.

There’s also politicking involved. Trump is currently losing this election, so he should be more desperate to get a debate going even if he is most likely to do poorly. From a politics perspective, the Harris campaign is right to press Trump and push the rules to make him as uncomfortable as possible. Trump can back out if he wants, but he is the one that needs the debate the most. That’s just how politics works. If Trump was ahead he could simply avoid the debate and run a telethon by himself like he’s done in the past when he refused to participate, in the same vein of political gamesmanship. It’s only fair that when Harris is on top she gets to be the gamester. That’s Trump’s lack of decorum coming back to roost. Those that lead with being dicks get mirrored treatment when the tables turn.

When Trump speaks of “immigrants,” he means immigrants like his wives and the people that work at his properties that were not born in the US. Not himself as someone born in the US to an immigrant mother, or his children born in the US to an immigrant mother.

What state has categories for mail voting? I’d like to do research to stay informed. Definitely do not lie on your mail ballot stuff.

Generally speaking, mail votes are considered very safe and respected. I posted a PSA elsewhere in this thread. The ACLU recommends mail voting. But if you prefer voting in person, that’s also a great option for you. I recommend doing it early so you don’t have to deal with long wait times.

If you have a reason to need to vote by mail, please do more research on your options because as I understand it mail voting is available to all Americans. If you need help with the research, feel free to ask, many of us here would be happy to help.

I would characterize my participation in this thread as PRO early voting, AGAINST voter suppression, and asking questions from your low-effort comments.

RE: Voter suppression This is a very important topic so I’m glad for the discussion.

Voter suppression is most damaging on election day because that’s when most of the actions by red states come together. By doing deliberate suppression like reducing the amount of polling locations, sending in older and broken voting machines, and inventing BS laws like prohibiting citizens from giving each other water, the goal is to make Nov 5 particularly gruseome for anyone trying to cast their vote from an urban center like Atlanta. As a result, we routinely see wait times of 12 hours in Atlanta just to cast a vote on election day.

Other efforts towards suppression affect other types of voting. Like the ID requirement and the shifting of mail voting regulations. However, the most damaging of these efforts affect those trying to cast their vote on Nov 5. This is why I recommend that people review their options for their state to vote early, and make a plan to vote as early as possible (in person or by mail).

RE: support for OP This is silly, but I think it’s funny that you claim to have reviewed my post history. I’ve been critical of this poster’s memes in this sub a few times and recently too. But why let the facts get in the way of your rant, same as you did in that farm post in which I didn’t even comment (what a mess of a thread that was). I only brought it up here because you are doing it again on something important, just ranting on feelings when we are talking about voting. I don’t care if you want to rant at anyone on this sub including me, but let’s stay on facts when talking about important stuff, please. This is an important election and we are talking about helping people figure out how to cast their vote.

PSA About mail ballots, because I know a lot of people are worried about this stuff.

Voting by mail is safe in the US. Here are some data points:

The ACLU recommends voting by mail https://www.aclu.org/news/voting-rights/voting-by-mail-is-easier-and-safer-than-you-think-heres-how

They would not make that recommendation if they thought your vote could be easily suppressed that way.

The rejection rate of mail ballots is only around 1% https://ballotpedia.org/Election_results,_2020:_Analysis_of_rejected_ballots

Rejections happen typically because the signature on the ballot doesn’t match the signature they have on record from your ID (state or driver’s license). Another reason is that states can change the requirements, and sometimes voters are not informed on those changes. So make sure you know the latest requirements for your state to avoid problems, and double check that you’ve followed all steps and your signature matches.

Things to know: You can track your mail ballot. Most states offer online tracking so you can confirm they have it.

You could vote by mail and in person. Check the rules for your state, but in many places they can track your voting and will simply override your mail ballot if you also show up to vote in person. This is done so you can request your mail ballot, and retain the option to go vote in person if you feel like it. Check with your state website if this is an option for you.

Do this stuff early. No reason to delay. Check when your state opens early voting. If you plan to vote in person, going early gives you the best odds at short wait times. If you plan to vote by mail, voting early makes sure there’s plenty of time for your ballot to reach the counting place within all deadlines, and to deal with any clerical issues if any happen to come up, particularly if this is your first time voting.

Plus, when you vote early you get to enjoy civic pride for this cycle longer than everyone else.

Are you talking about the post about comparing the quality of life of a farmer in the 1800s vs now, and a bunch of you madlads took the position that the miserly farmer in the 1800s had it better? Wasn’t it you that that tried to argue that OP’s data was wrong by posting links that proved OP’s data was correct?

I swear, sometimes Lemmy makes me feel like I’ve fallen into a fever dream. The quality of discourse around these parts.

It’s not even how voter suppression works…

Please do continue. I’ve done a lot of research on GOP voter suppression in places like Georgia, so I’m excited to hear what you have to say on the topic.

For those that actually want to look into it: https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/georgias-voter-suppression-law

My recommendation to anyone in a GOP state: Vote early, and I’d personally use a mail ballot to avoid their voting location shenanigans. They can’t make you wait in line for 12 hours if you get your ballot via the mail.

2/2

War is easy. If we want to back off we can simply let Israel get their weapons anywhere else in the world because they don’t need top-tier US war gear since Gaza is entirely defenseless and Hamas is fighting with low-tier weapons. So if we do what the pro-Hamas tiktokers want, we could simply have the US disengage, make a show of stopping weapons supplies to Israel, and then both Israel and Hamas would get exactly what they want which is to keep fighting it out to the last drop of blood, with scores of Gaza civilians dead in the middle.

Peace is hard. Staying involved so we can lean on Israel with Western influence and threats of pulling broad support, and working to bring half a dozen state actors to the negotiation table, drawing up several rounds of cease-fire proposals, trying to enforce food deliveries to civilians in a war zone. All that stuff is very hard. Even harder is to negotiate Palestinian statehood and sell it to the international community for full support. Even more will be having me, the US tax payer, pay for the Gaza reconstruction. And for the US troubles, they get labeled “fascists” by the tiktok crowd that would simply let Hamas have exactly what they want to prolong Gaza’s suffering and destruction.

If any of this sounds foreign, take a moment to think about this. Gaza’s population at the start of the conflict was 4 million people. They are fish in a barrel, locked in on every side by all countries, with no way to defend themselves against modern war weapons. People keep calling this a “genocide” under the accusation that Israel wants all Gazans dead. There are 40k dead by the count of the Hamas Health Ministry. That’s 1% of the Gaza population. They’ve been fish in a barrel for nearly a year and only 1% official casualties. This is because the US puts guardrails on what Israel is allowed to shoot at as part of their anti-Hamas operation, as the US seeks to find a way to end the conflict with some form of agreement. If we pull out completely and let Israel and Hamas have at each other no-holds-barred like they want to, you think the death toll after 1 year of modern war rockets on a defenseless population would be 1%? Israel has the military might to wipe Gaza completely within weeks. The West is standing in their way using international pressure and the rules embedded in the weapons agreements.

The reason we DONT want to pull out of Israel is so that we can continue to stand in their way to protect Gaza’s civilians. So that we have a say in pushing in food convoys. So that we can head the negotiation table and demand a cease fire.

1/2 In short: No more bullets or rockets on either side moving forward. It would be a culmination of centuries of deeply rooted animosity in the region.

There are only 2 ways to get there. Either the bigger side kills every one on the smaller side, as is customary in human history. Or (#2) the Western world order steps in to force a Palestine state that will be fully recognized and protected by international agreements (the same way that Israel is allowed to draw breath today, through the protection of the bigger Western guns demanding peace).

Since it’s clear we are simply not going to allow Israel to do #1, the only option left is to do #2. As long as Biden ->Harris goes, this is the direction of things. So on the current path we are on, we are most likely to end the Hamas terrorist rule, secure Palestine as a state and let them form a government, use my tax money to pay to help rebuild Gaza, and apply social equity investment to help Palestinians form trade and communication ties with the world to guarantee their place.

Once Palestine is a fully recognized country with a seat in the international community, they’ll have to answer at a state level for any Hamas-like BS they might start later, and they’ll also be protected from any future Israel incursions.

We all wish this could be done in a few days with zero civilian casualties, but that’s not how things work, particularly when the terrorists that run Gaza want their own people dead (as martyrs and meat shields) with twice as much gusto as the invading force. The reason negotiating a cease fire is so complicated is that Hamas doesn’t want one, because they are getting exactly what they want, a nasty war with lots of dead civilians for their propaganda channels.

Biden’s strategy so far has been to use Western influence to put guardrails on what Israel is “allowed” to do in terms of operations and certain weapons use, and lean hard on all sides to accept a peace agreement. Mind you, settling ALL sides is quite a complicated mess because Hamas terrorism has a lot of support from Israel-hating states that love the depth of the conflict. Region countries that don’t see human life as valuable like we do in the West, and are happy to use a destitute population in Gaza as martyrs for their political objectives against Israel.

“What an evil comment” says the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

that’s being manipulated with propaganda warfare by terrorists groups, to support an agenda of hate and death on both sides of the conflict, including Palestinians civilians.

Those of us that want a decades-old conflict to reach a sustainable end are now “the fascists” in the eyes of the deeply disinformed and dangerously vocal tiktok simpletons.

You haven’t made any effort to ponder on why the leaders of my country that take this stuff seriously and are trying to solve it won’t waste a minute of their day to listen to your nonsense Hamas talking points. You just decided that anyone that is not like you knee-deep in terrorist propaganda has to be evil. Fantastic. What a champion of morals, willing to teach the rest of us how to not want children to die - we would be so lost without your moral guidance and tiktok-tier understanding of these complex issues.

Thank you for helping with today’s demonstration.

? It’s a cartoon, I don’t see it trying to pass as a real picture of 3 people with a transcript of what was said in regular conversation.

Given the title of “civics”, what I understood from this is that anything we say in current politics can be said reasonably, and people can choose to be decent, respectful and gainful in how they interact with each other. Lots of people and places have rules against “politics” talk because we can’t behave ourselves. But being divisive is not a requirement of politics, that’s just us being assholes.

The people in the cartoon are showing us that you can also talk about these issues respectfully and working together.

For instance, lots of assholes around these parts come in with their pro-Hamas rhetoric talking about how the US is supporting genocide, acting like the rest of us are happy with children being bombed. The difference is not that we support genocide, the difference is that we don’t think the answer is anywhere near as simple as they want to make it. That region is full of religious hate and ignorance with roots of bloodthirst that go back thousands of years, and it will not be fixed overnight with any one policy.

And where is the outrage about Sudan? https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/22/africa/sudan-darfur-humanitarian-aid-intl/index.html

10 million people have fled their homes due to civil war, the WHO says 8.5 million peoples are at emergency levels of food insecurity, and the UN is warning that the death toll could be 4 million people if we don’t intervene aggressively https://www.npr.org/sections/goats-and-soda/2024/08/21/g-s1-18004/famine-hunger-sudan-united-nations-food-insecurity

Let me be clear. My president in the US and his Secretary of State are already working hard on finding a cease-fire deal in Gaza, and the entire West alliance is putting pressure on Israel to end their operations. But who is working to do something for Sudan? While all these pro-Hamas drones are plastering the internet with Hamas propaganda and doing shenanigans at the DNC to get attention, yet nobody gives a shit about 4 million impending deaths by famine because they didn’t see it on tiktok. Where are the calls to hear from a Sudanese-American at the Dem convention?

And here we are with this cartoon asking me to find a way to listen to the pro-Hamas tiktok simpletons, and try to communicate with them to find some common ground. It’s hard, but it’s true that we don’t HAVE to be assholes, we just are for now. The one side starts at asshole and goes from there, and it brings out only the asshole out of the other side. Same for any topic. But it doesn’t have to be that way, it’s just the way we are doing it.

Now, for a practical demonstration, watch the response from the pro-Hamas simpletons.

Trump will sue you constantly over petty BS like the state of your home’s paint job and some made up story about how you hit his trash cans with your hummer truck (when you don’t even own a hummer), and Vance would wait for you to be stuck in the hospital caring for a loved one to file a HOA motion on your home because you forgot to mow the lawn that week.

Kamala is the neighbor that shows you how to fight Vance’s HOA motion, and Tim Walz shows up the next day and mows your lawn with his own riding mower without even asking you about it.

I know it’s hard to find real images of these families since most pics online are going to be PR-approved. But that image of the Vance family is quite disingenuous.

The Vances are cosplaying as a regular rural family, but he is an Ivy graduate who sold himself to a twisted libertarian billionaire, and she is a highly paid Ivy lawyer that has worked with the corrupt conservative SCOTUS judges. A real picture of those 2 would be in fancy dressing at an exclusive cocktail party for the dirty right-wing powers trying to control the country. Far from salt-of-the-earth Americans just trying to live their lives.