Then the Dems just went like OK we’ll never ever do something like that again.
I mean, it’s because instead of pulling the DNC left. He just abandoned it because it was a relic of the past and it was easier to just ignore the DNC and let state parties handle their own shit.
His mistake was not completely burning the DNC down. So after he left office and moderates retook control in 2016, they’ve made a lot of moves to ensure a moderate or Republican are the only two options.
People talk about how much Obama pissed off trump.
But its nothing compared to how much Obama pissed off “moderates”.
But its nothing compared to how much Obama pissed off “moderates”.
Are you being fucking for real right now
Obama, and I say this as someone who has a positive opinion of Obama insofar as one can in the political environment that he came to power in, was very much himself a moderate. He didn’t ‘piss off’ moderates. He was one.
The Dems lost the house of representatives in Obama’s years 3 and 4. Again in years 5 and 6. And then lost both the house of representatives and the Senate in Obama’s years 7 and 8.
And you’re wondering why they didn’t make a big move left after? They lost control in 3 out of 4 elections under Obama. There is more than just the presidential election you know. The left voters never showed up after the first election.
(And imo Hilary did make a move left in climate change with the map room. And guess what, the left voters didn’t show up.)
On the contrary: that person is an “enlightened centrist” that blames every Dem loss ever on “going left”, even those of near-republicans with no charisma Hillary and Kerry 🤦
Your conclusion that they’re not worth the bother is absolutely right, though.
More accurately I blame the left voters that never show up. These logical voters, that logically want a logical platform, that makes logical sense, and until then they will logically not vote, or logically vote 3rd party, because they are logical, but wait they need charisma to feed their feelings.
You really do show it’s the old “Dems fall in love, republicans fall in line.”
Pretty sad state of affairs that you think it’s a binary of either no criticism of whatever corporatist is selected for you or ignoring that they’re the least awful choice 🙄
As for “Dems fall in love, Republicans fall in line”, it’s the opposite now: Republicans worship Trump and most of the people voting for Biden have no love for him but fall in line to avoid Trump.
Lol know what’s a sad state of affairs? Me pointing out that Dems lose when they move to the left (because left voters don’t show up) and you twisting and backflipping that into me being a centrist lol. Binary? Lol I’m criticizing and you are the one binary categorizing me as a centrist because of that. I’ll chalk that one to projection.
Least awful choice? What I’ve said repeatedly is that if you want things to move left, if you want policy to move left, if you want the Overton window to move left, then you vote for Dems. Funny how you think I’m centrist when I keep telling people how to move things left. This isn’t about least awful, it’s about moving things left (over multiple elections).
Dude you said it yourself with charisma. Charisma for everyone to fall in love with. Maybe not you, but you see it and want it for all those logical voters.
That’s just not true. The last time Dems ran from the left was Obama’s first campaign where he ran on hope and progressive change. He won that election in a landslide with high voter participation.
Then he governed as a moderate and won reelection by a much narrower margin and with much lower voter participation to a corporate raider and animal abuser turned centrist Republican incarnate.
Then they insisted on Hillary, who, in spite of the “map room” you keep babbling about to salvage your busted hypothesis, ran to the right of most Democrats, which in combination with her Pied Piper strategy resulted in extremely low voter turnout and the worst entity to ever run for the office coming within cheating distance of the white house.
because left voters don’t show up
That’s just not true. Remember Hillary’s PUMA? They retconned it into “people united means action” when they made it into a corporation, but the original words behind the acronym was “party unity my ass”
A much higher percentage of PUMAs and other Hillary 08 primary voters voted for McCain or not at all than Bernie voters for the Mango Mussolini or not at all.
twisting and backflipping that into me being a centrist
Well if it walks like a centrist and spews condescending lies about the left like a centrist… 🤷
I’m criticizing and you are the one categorizing me as a centrist because of that
Yeah, you’re unfairly criticizing the left for not showing up to vote. Which is a common centrist smear job when their corporatist candidates fail or almost fail to win.
I’ll chalk that one to projection.
You know that words have meanings, right? 🙄
Least awful choice?
Yes, Biden is awful but much less awful than Trump. Shouldn’t be so hard to understand.
What I’ve said repeatedly is that if you want things to move left, if you want policy to move left, if you want the Overton window to move left, then you vote for Dems.
Which is what centrists who haven’t heard about or deny the ratchet effect keep claiming. It’s not true, though.
Dem leadership fights the left MUCH harder than they ever fight the fascists on the other side of the aisle. A good example is how the Hillary-endorsed establishment favorite beat Jamaal Bowman with money from AIPAC and crypto scammers, outspending him 7/1 in the most expensive primary this election cycle.
Funny how you think I’m centrist when I keep telling people how to move left
With the exception of Obama’s first campaign (but none of his time in office), Dems have kept following as the GOP move further right ever since they learned the wrong lessons from Carter losing to a well-funded and charismatic demagogue.
So yeah, pretending that you move left by voting for Dems IS a very centrist kind of bullshit claim. One the ultraincrementalist corporatist Dem leadership itself loves repeating.
This isn’t about least awful, it’s about moving things left (over multiple elections).
As I’ve explained above, neither of that is actually true. It’s just comforting lies that center right to right wing Democrats use to fool people into voting for them rather than the people whose policies they agree with.
Dude you said it yourself with charisma. Charisma for everyone to fall in love with.
If it was all about charisma, Biden wouldn’t have won. Meanwhile, the utterly repulsive Trump has a perverse kind of “strong man charisma” that makes fascists and stupid people fall in love with him.
Maybe not you, but you see it and want it for all those logical voters
Nah, tbh I’d much rather have boring politicians with great policy positions than people like Obama who seem cool but self-identify as moderate Republicans. There’s far too much demagoguery in politics.
Well I have 2 breakdowns saved for conversations exactly like this.
Let’s run through the recent story so people have it:
Jimmy Carter: Told people to conserve and got voted the fuck out. AKA left voters never show up.
Bill Clinton: After successive losses Bill figured out “it’s the economy stupid”. And when you run against an incumbent (Bush senior) you run from the center. So that’s what he did. And he won.
Gore: After the population hopefully warmed up with Bill Clinton, he stuck his head out left with climate change, that supposedly big important issue to left people. And bam he lost the election. Thanks 3rd party protest voters!
Obama: So guess what Obama learned? Don’t stick your head out. He ran on vague “hope”, hoping the ambiguity would be enough considering Bush’s disastrous wars. And he won.
Hillary Clinton: After the population hopefully warmed up with Obama, she stuck her head out just a tiny itty little bit left on climate change (that thing all the leftists care about right?) with the Map Room. And guess what happened? Bam she lost. Thanks protest non-voters! AKA left voters never show up.
On to Biden. Just like Obama learned from Gore, Biden learned from Hillary that you don’t stick your head out left. And he was running against an incumbent, so once again when you do that you run center. He’s actually been governing more from the left, but he ran center.
And people are amazed that they don’t run an extreme left platform? Every time they stick their head out a little itsy bitsy tiny bit left they lose. And the next guy learns to go to the center to win.
So how do you get them to move left? By giving them victories. Consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose, like they’ve lost 20 years out of the last 24 years, they will go to the centre to find votes.
Then [obama] governed as a moderate and won reelection by a much narrower margin
The Dems lost the house of representatives in Obama’s years 3 and 4. Again in years 5 and 6. And then lost both the house of representatives and the Senate in Obama’s years 7 and 8.
They lost control in 3 out of 4 elections under Obama. There is more than just the presidential election you know. The left voters never showed up after the first election. AKA the left voters never show up [after the first election].
And you’re wondering why they didn’t make a big move left after? Hilary made a small move left on climate change, that big important issue.
Well if it walks like a centrist and spews condescending lies about the left like a centrist…
Oh man and you’re still on it. Yeah you’re projecting hard with your binary categorization simply because I’m informing you that when Dems lose they go to the center. Well given that we’ll see how much of the rest I’ll reply to.
Yeah, you’re unfairly criticizing the left for not showing up to vote
Very fairly, see history above.
a common centrist smear job
Fucking lol at your backflips. I’m telling left people how to be effective and you’re backflipping that into a centrist smear job.
Oh man you just continue with jabs the whole way down. I’m not going to call them all out, just that you do that.
Dems have kept following as the GOP move further right
Ok I’ve had this conversation and realized that people can’t do the math. So lets do it:
Let’s evaluate the last say 24 years and when the Dems had all 3 of the House of Representatives, Senate, and Presidency. Obama had it for 2 out of 8 years. Biden had it for 2 out of 4 years. Let’s add it: That means Dems had control for 4 out of 24 years. Read that again, they had control for only 4 the last 24 years.
And that can still be filibustered. So if you want the filibuster proof majority, then Obama had it for 4 months. Not years, MONTHS. Biden never had it. Add it up: Dems had filibuster proof control for 4 months of the last 24 years.
Look at those stats again: Dems had control for 4 years of the last 24 years. For filibuster proof control, Dems had control for 4 MONTHS of the last 24 years.
This is why Dems compromise and reach across the aisle, because they basically never have control. To get literally anything done they need to compromise. Take your pick, either 4 years of the last 24 fucking years, or the 4 months or the last 24 years. And you wonder why they have to compromise? And why they go to the centre on the next election?
If you want progress you have to give Dems overwhelming and consistent victories.
Want to add Bill Clinton? That goes to 6 years of the last 32 years, and still 4 months for filibuster proof for the last 32 fucking years.
Want to add Bush senior? Then it’s 6 years of the last 36 fucking years.
Want to add Reagan? Then it’s 6 years of the last 44 years.
That’s right, 6 years out of the last 44 fucking years that Dems had control. And for filibuster proof majority they had 4 months of the last 44 fucking years. Not 4 years, 4 MONTHS of the least 44 fucking years.
As I’ve explained above, neither of that is actually true. It’s just comforting lies that center right to right wing Democrats use to fool people into voting for them rather than the people whose policies they agree with.
Where do you think things would be if Gore won? It would be further left.
Where do you think things would be if Hilary won? It would be further left.
People need to stop waiting for this left candidate that’s they think is going to magically appear (and until then they will logically protest no-vote). If you want things to go left you give Dems wins consistently and overwhelmingly.
Some left people think this is a mexican standoff, and that they just need to standoff and then the Dems will move left. But no they won’t. The dems will just go to the voters that show up, which is, drumroll please, the center. Every time they lose they go to the center.
A center voter is worth double, because it’s both a vote for you and a vote taken away from the other party. So when Dems lose, they go to the center voter (worth double) that actually shows up. Do you want the Dems to move left? Then be the voter that shows up, so that the Dems don’t lose and have to go to the center to find voters.
I mean, it’s because instead of pulling the DNC left. He just abandoned it because it was a relic of the past and it was easier to just ignore the DNC and let state parties handle their own shit.
His mistake was not completely burning the DNC down. So after he left office and moderates retook control in 2016, they’ve made a lot of moves to ensure a moderate or Republican are the only two options.
People talk about how much Obama pissed off trump.
But its nothing compared to how much Obama pissed off “moderates”.
Are you being fucking for real right now
Obama, and I say this as someone who has a positive opinion of Obama insofar as one can in the political environment that he came to power in, was very much himself a moderate. He didn’t ‘piss off’ moderates. He was one.
Jesus Christ.
Are you kidding?
The Dems lost the house of representatives in Obama’s years 3 and 4. Again in years 5 and 6. And then lost both the house of representatives and the Senate in Obama’s years 7 and 8.
And you’re wondering why they didn’t make a big move left after? They lost control in 3 out of 4 elections under Obama. There is more than just the presidential election you know. The left voters never showed up after the first election.
(And imo Hilary did make a move left in climate change with the map room. And guess what, the left voters didn’t show up.)
To be fair, Clinton didn’t show up in a lot of swing states, either. She just assumed her Blue Wall would vote for her.
So what do you as the informed left voter, that wants things to move left do? You vote for Dems. You don’t wait to fall in love, you vote.
Removed by mod
On the contrary: that person is an “enlightened centrist” that blames every Dem loss ever on “going left”, even those of near-republicans with no charisma Hillary and Kerry 🤦
Your conclusion that they’re not worth the bother is absolutely right, though.
Lol I’m not a centrist, nice strawman.
More accurately I blame the left voters that never show up. These logical voters, that logically want a logical platform, that makes logical sense, and until then they will logically not vote, or logically vote 3rd party, because they are logical, but wait they need charisma to feed their feelings.
You really do show it’s the old “Dems fall in love, republicans fall in line.”
Nah, I’ve never missed an opportunity to vote.
Pretty sad state of affairs that you think it’s a binary of either no criticism of whatever corporatist is selected for you or ignoring that they’re the least awful choice 🙄
As for “Dems fall in love, Republicans fall in line”, it’s the opposite now: Republicans worship Trump and most of the people voting for Biden have no love for him but fall in line to avoid Trump.
Nice, now convince the other left people.
Lol know what’s a sad state of affairs? Me pointing out that Dems lose when they move to the left (because left voters don’t show up) and you twisting and backflipping that into me being a centrist lol. Binary? Lol I’m criticizing and you are the one binary categorizing me as a centrist because of that. I’ll chalk that one to projection.
Least awful choice? What I’ve said repeatedly is that if you want things to move left, if you want policy to move left, if you want the Overton window to move left, then you vote for Dems. Funny how you think I’m centrist when I keep telling people how to move things left. This isn’t about least awful, it’s about moving things left (over multiple elections).
Dude you said it yourself with charisma. Charisma for everyone to fall in love with. Maybe not you, but you see it and want it for all those logical voters.
That’s just not true. The last time Dems ran from the left was Obama’s first campaign where he ran on hope and progressive change. He won that election in a landslide with high voter participation.
Then he governed as a moderate and won reelection by a much narrower margin and with much lower voter participation to a corporate raider and animal abuser turned centrist Republican incarnate.
Then they insisted on Hillary, who, in spite of the “map room” you keep babbling about to salvage your busted hypothesis, ran to the right of most Democrats, which in combination with her Pied Piper strategy resulted in extremely low voter turnout and the worst entity to ever run for the office coming within cheating distance of the white house.
That’s just not true. Remember Hillary’s PUMA? They retconned it into “people united means action” when they made it into a corporation, but the original words behind the acronym was “party unity my ass”
A much higher percentage of PUMAs and other Hillary 08 primary voters voted for McCain or not at all than Bernie voters for the Mango Mussolini or not at all.
Well if it walks like a centrist and spews condescending lies about the left like a centrist… 🤷
Yeah, you’re unfairly criticizing the left for not showing up to vote. Which is a common centrist smear job when their corporatist candidates fail or almost fail to win.
You know that words have meanings, right? 🙄
Yes, Biden is awful but much less awful than Trump. Shouldn’t be so hard to understand.
Which is what centrists who haven’t heard about or deny the ratchet effect keep claiming. It’s not true, though.
Dem leadership fights the left MUCH harder than they ever fight the fascists on the other side of the aisle. A good example is how the Hillary-endorsed establishment favorite beat Jamaal Bowman with money from AIPAC and crypto scammers, outspending him 7/1 in the most expensive primary this election cycle.
With the exception of Obama’s first campaign (but none of his time in office), Dems have kept following as the GOP move further right ever since they learned the wrong lessons from Carter losing to a well-funded and charismatic demagogue.
So yeah, pretending that you move left by voting for Dems IS a very centrist kind of bullshit claim. One the ultraincrementalist corporatist Dem leadership itself loves repeating.
As I’ve explained above, neither of that is actually true. It’s just comforting lies that center right to right wing Democrats use to fool people into voting for them rather than the people whose policies they agree with.
If it was all about charisma, Biden wouldn’t have won. Meanwhile, the utterly repulsive Trump has a perverse kind of “strong man charisma” that makes fascists and stupid people fall in love with him.
Nah, tbh I’d much rather have boring politicians with great policy positions than people like Obama who seem cool but self-identify as moderate Republicans. There’s far too much demagoguery in politics.
Well I have 2 breakdowns saved for conversations exactly like this.
Let’s run through the recent story so people have it:
Jimmy Carter: Told people to conserve and got voted the fuck out. AKA left voters never show up.
Bill Clinton: After successive losses Bill figured out “it’s the economy stupid”. And when you run against an incumbent (Bush senior) you run from the center. So that’s what he did. And he won.
Gore: After the population hopefully warmed up with Bill Clinton, he stuck his head out left with climate change, that supposedly big important issue to left people. And bam he lost the election. Thanks 3rd party protest voters!
Obama: So guess what Obama learned? Don’t stick your head out. He ran on vague “hope”, hoping the ambiguity would be enough considering Bush’s disastrous wars. And he won.
Hillary Clinton: After the population hopefully warmed up with Obama, she stuck her head out just a tiny itty little bit left on climate change (that thing all the leftists care about right?) with the Map Room. And guess what happened? Bam she lost. Thanks protest non-voters! AKA left voters never show up.
On to Biden. Just like Obama learned from Gore, Biden learned from Hillary that you don’t stick your head out left. And he was running against an incumbent, so once again when you do that you run center. He’s actually been governing more from the left, but he ran center.
And people are amazed that they don’t run an extreme left platform? Every time they stick their head out a little itsy bitsy tiny bit left they lose. And the next guy learns to go to the center to win.
So how do you get them to move left? By giving them victories. Consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose, like they’ve lost 20 years out of the last 24 years, they will go to the centre to find votes.
The Dems lost the house of representatives in Obama’s years 3 and 4. Again in years 5 and 6. And then lost both the house of representatives and the Senate in Obama’s years 7 and 8.
They lost control in 3 out of 4 elections under Obama. There is more than just the presidential election you know. The left voters never showed up after the first election. AKA the left voters never show up [after the first election].
And you’re wondering why they didn’t make a big move left after? Hilary made a small move left on climate change, that big important issue.
Oh man and you’re still on it. Yeah you’re projecting hard with your binary categorization simply because I’m informing you that when Dems lose they go to the center. Well given that we’ll see how much of the rest I’ll reply to.
Very fairly, see history above.
Fucking lol at your backflips. I’m telling left people how to be effective and you’re backflipping that into a centrist smear job.
Oh man you just continue with jabs the whole way down. I’m not going to call them all out, just that you do that.
Ok I’ve had this conversation and realized that people can’t do the math. So lets do it:
Let’s evaluate the last say 24 years and when the Dems had all 3 of the House of Representatives, Senate, and Presidency. Obama had it for 2 out of 8 years. Biden had it for 2 out of 4 years. Let’s add it: That means Dems had control for 4 out of 24 years. Read that again, they had control for only 4 the last 24 years.
And that can still be filibustered. So if you want the filibuster proof majority, then Obama had it for 4 months. Not years, MONTHS. Biden never had it. Add it up: Dems had filibuster proof control for 4 months of the last 24 years.
Look at those stats again: Dems had control for 4 years of the last 24 years. For filibuster proof control, Dems had control for 4 MONTHS of the last 24 years.
This is why Dems compromise and reach across the aisle, because they basically never have control. To get literally anything done they need to compromise. Take your pick, either 4 years of the last 24 fucking years, or the 4 months or the last 24 years. And you wonder why they have to compromise? And why they go to the centre on the next election?
If you want progress you have to give Dems overwhelming and consistent victories.
Want to add Bill Clinton? That goes to 6 years of the last 32 years, and still 4 months for filibuster proof for the last 32 fucking years.
Want to add Bush senior? Then it’s 6 years of the last 36 fucking years.
Want to add Reagan? Then it’s 6 years of the last 44 years.
That’s right, 6 years out of the last 44 fucking years that Dems had control. And for filibuster proof majority they had 4 months of the last 44 fucking years. Not 4 years, 4 MONTHS of the least 44 fucking years.
Where do you think things would be if Gore won? It would be further left.
Where do you think things would be if Hilary won? It would be further left.
People need to stop waiting for this left candidate that’s they think is going to magically appear (and until then they will logically protest no-vote). If you want things to go left you give Dems wins consistently and overwhelmingly.
Some left people think this is a mexican standoff, and that they just need to standoff and then the Dems will move left. But no they won’t. The dems will just go to the voters that show up, which is, drumroll please, the center. Every time they lose they go to the center.
A center voter is worth double, because it’s both a vote for you and a vote taken away from the other party. So when Dems lose, they go to the center voter (worth double) that actually shows up. Do you want the Dems to move left? Then be the voter that shows up, so that the Dems don’t lose and have to go to the center to find voters.
As long as other people learn I’m happy to do it.