A decision to negotiate over the heads of the Ukrainians would reveal just how Trump sees Ukraine and Europe.
Disclaimer: The article linked is from a single source with a single perspective. Make sure to cross-check information against multiple sources to get a comprehensive view on the situation.
It isn’t a peace deal.
It is a deal to bully someone else together.
It is. Trump gets this piece. Putin gets this piece. And so on.
Europe needs to stand together on this and cut ties with USA.
Trump is a Russian asset.
History is full of such examples
If the Poles and Czechs haven’t figured out who their enemies are with this, nothing else will help.
AP headline: “Russia and US agree to work toward ending Ukraine war in a remarkable diplomatic shift”
They mention that Ukraine isn’t even at the table several paragraphs in. Jolly.
And that’s still too left wing for the trump white house.
there isn’t enough rope in the world for the reckoning that’s warranted.
And now watch the Neonazi come out of the wood work “oooh, they are threatening violence, law enforcement, protect us from the meanies”…back in the world wars, Nazis died. That was their role, to die like the scum they are, to make a point. We never should have stopped. We should have treated any soure of Nazis as combatants and bombed them.
This isn’t a peace deal, this is a conspiracy. Ukraine has zero obligation to accept any of this. However they will have to start making considerations about a Polish Underground state type of ordeal. This fighting is not going to stop for a decade more. The region is going to resemble fucking Afghanistan.
. Russia has no intention of stopping and they might as well tell MAGA to go fuck themselves, and Europe better get ready to join.
I hope Ukraine wins and turns on America. I would love to see Trump’s face.
I will not be the least bit surprised if there’s a future in 5 years where Ukraine no longer exists as a state, and Bitter Ukrainian refugees commit terrorism attacks against the United States.
There is a reason Treachery is the lowest circle of hell in dante’s inferno.
should i remind you who owns ukraine now?
This isn’t a peace agreement, this is a rehabilitate Russia agreement.
The whole goal is for Trump to run cover for Putin and say" if you do this we’ll remove all the sanctions", all the while not changing the ground war at all. (And probably throw sanctions on Ukraine at the same time).
Ukraine will resist, Europe will resist.
The article only summarizes it shortly, but the parallels to the Munich Agreement from 1938 are really scary.
Hitler’s aim was to take over all of Czechoslovakia by breaking it apart. The subject of the Munich Agreement was the Sudetenland, the region bordering Germany. Before there were some votes and local political forces expressing the wish of the German minority in the Sudetenland to create an independent state (See the parallels with DNR, LNR and Crimea). This was used by Hitler to justify taking over the region. Suddenly it wasn’t about independence anymore, but about inclusion into Germany.
The Czechoslovakian government in Prague obviously hated the idea, but they were not invited to the talks in Munich. Only afterwards were they made aware of the decision that would be imposed on their nation. Who was invited was fellow fascist Mussolini from Italy, as well as France and UK, who gave in and signed this agreement, giving international support to Germany just taking over parts of neighboring nations.
Their reasoning was, if they were to disagree, Hitler would assert his will by force and take Czechoslovakia militarily, starting a large European war (that is also the reason Prague was forced to accept the decision: the alternative was a war they could never win, they could not count on any outside help). This was the so-called appeasement policy by the UK. They bought “peace” in exchange for territories they didn’t own but felt the right to decide over. We all know how this heavily-priced peace turned out. At most it gave the allied forces one more year to prepare for WWII.
Meanwhile there are also western Oligarchs doing business with both sides so they can get dynasty-rich off of the deaths of millions.
I see a better parallel with the partition of Poland in Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with these talks. The Munich Agreement was the Minsk agreements and letting russia have Crimea.
Here’s some additional reading for anyone interested
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Czechoslovakia_(1938–1945)?wprov=sfla1
Time for Germany to build nuclear weapon stockpiles. Fuck this shit with the USA and Russia. Their Saudi Arabia meeting was another 2018 Helsinki shitshow.
Considering they’re stopping all nuclear I really doubt it
Fuck Russia!
And Fuck Trumpist USA.
Indeed.
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Just because Trump wants it to be America’s war doesn’t mean that it is. Trump wants many things to be true, most of which are not.
They’re constructing a new ‘stabbed in the back’ mythology in real time
those mental gymnastics are occurring on this thread right now lol
It’s still wrong. Trump acting like it’s an American war is just ridiculous.
acting like it’s not after all this fucking time is what is actually ridiculous.
EU gives more military support to Ukraine than US, so it’s bullshit.
What was americas war
Zelenskyy has stated that he is not willing to negotiate with Putin as well as that they will not settle for less than getting back all the occupied territories including Crimea. There is no peace deal to be made with these terms as the starting point.
Giving away conquered territory in hopes of peace is called appeasement. Historically, it doesn’t go well.
It worked for Finland (after the Winter War).
What’s the alternative here? Russians going home and giving back all the conquered territories is simply not going to happen.
The alternative is making Russia getting/keeping the territory a worse option than leaving Ukraine the hell alone. I agree that the unfortunate reality is that Putin will never - can never - give up the war willingly without concessions, but the flip side to that is they’ll be back for more sooner or later. We have to make the war such a bad option for Russia that Putin is deposed, whether by his oligarchs or by the Russian people. It’s a difficult fight, but it’s one we’ve fought before on 3 fronts in WWII. The difference, this time, being nukes exist and that understandably makes a lot of people nervous - but again, expansionists never stop. The confrontation has to come at some point unless we want all-out war in Europe.
I’m far removed from the situation, so my opinion isn’t worth much on this part, but I think realistically maybe there could be some concessions around Crimea for a peace deal - sort of a status quo ante or similar - but Russia would have to make some concessions in turn for Ukraine to agree (NATO peacekeeping forces in Ukraine? Still a no-go for Putin though…). Ceding Ukranian territorial losses from the current war, though, will only put off the eventual confrontation, and hurt the West in the meantime.
We have to make the war such a bad option for Russia that Putin is deposed,
You’re right and it might be humanity’s only chance at survival. In the post nuclear era, we must either eradicate all warmongering, or it will likely kill every single one of us.
If Putin wins, no one else can. He chose to start a new war for personal reasons in the post nuclear age. Humanity likely cannot afford to tolerate people who do that, in a post nuclear age.
I’m far removed from the situation, so my opinion isn’t worth much on this part, but I think realistically maybe there could be some concessions around Crimea for a peace deal
If your opinion isnt worth shit dont share it, the notion that Russia will give up any territory, never mind territory it held before the invasion is counter to the reality where the entire ukraine front is currently collapsing and Zelensky isnt even being considered in peace talks because he has no position of strength due to insane losses.
Ceding Ukranian territorial losses from the current war, though, will only put off the eventual confrontation, and hurt the West in the meantime.
‘Millions more must die for my nationalism’
You realize your opinion isn’t worth shit either, yeah? Maybe it’s worth even less, considering where you are posting from.
Only opinion that matters now is the one being signed between Russia and America; Ukraine has already lost, you’re just too stupid to notice that.
America doesn’t have a say in the war, no matter how much Trump would like that.
If Ukraine doesn’t get a say in a peace talk, then they will just keep killing Russians until they do.
And Europe will keep supplying them until that happens.
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There’s nothing that can be done, Russia is winning on the battlefield. At this point negotiating suits Ukraine, not the other way around.
Buying thousands of North Koreans with zero combat experience to attempt to take back land you lost in an invasion that you started… is that what winning looks like?
Winning is when two global super powers carve up your country and when you arent even invited to the discussion.
Russia isn’t a super power.
They’re holding more dirt, but taking more losses while they’re economy is not doing so great. If that’s what winning looks like then I wouldn’t want to be a winner.
Conquered territories including Kursk?
What’s the point of ceding part of your country for peace, if you get invaded again a few years later? That’s not peace.
There isn’t. There’s also no point in continuing a strategy that clearly favors Russia (they’re the ones steadily gaining ground every month).
The better strategy (which Trump almost certainly won’t entertain) is to negotiate a peace now and use that time to build a robust defense-in-depth at the current border.
It will be ugly because it will turn miles of border into a dangerous DMZ. But Russia already demonstrated that it works. Dig a crap ton of trenches. Build out bunkers and anti-tank traps. Ignore Geneva a bit and mine the crap out of the area. Lots of surveillance. Probably some experimental infrastructure to make it easier to deploy drones.
That would also need to be coupled with commitments to build out munitions plants in Western Ukraine; primarily artillery shells and drones.
This will work because it dramatically raises the cost of each meter of ground gained by opposing forces. Ukraine can get defensive infrastructure that they can cheaply operate, without significant external assistance.
The downside is that Ukraine would loose parts of its territory. The upside is that it has a far better chance of keeping the territory it still has.
Seems like something that’s atleast worth the shot when the alternative is to continue with the ongoing war while losing more and more territory and soldiers each day. In order to prevent a war from happening again you first need to stop the war that’s already going on.
I feel like it might be a bit better to try to fight on until you have at least some security guarantees, so you know they just don’t attack you right after regrouping than let them disarm you in name of peace and then get fucked right after by their attack.
Leaving yourself at the mercy of your attacker is the sort of lunacy you’d only have to resort to when you have no other choice.
Or your name is Trump.
I don’t see how continuing the fight is going to lead to security guarantees for Ukraine. A peace deal or ceasefire could at least allow individual countries to send peacekeepers independently of NATO. There are ways to deter a future attack outside of full membership. And if a ceasefire ends up being just a chance to regroup, then at least Ukraine gets that chance as well. As we saw during Ukraine’s “counteroffensive,” well-fortified positions are extremely difficult and costly to break through.
Continuing fighting gives more time to get those security guarantees. A peace is worth nothing without them.
A peace deal or ceasefire could at least allow individual countries to send peacekeepers independently of NATO
That’s assuming that’s the sort of peace deal or ceasefire Russia would agree to.
And if a ceasefire ends up being just a chance to regroup, then at least Ukraine gets that chance as well.
Not only would that give a better position for Russia who has better means to regroup with Ukraine’s support faltering, for that too, that’s assuming that’s the sort of peace deal or ceasefire Russia would agree to.
If Russia did say that we should just pause the fighting, I’d imagine Ukraine would go for that. But it’s not likely Russia is going to do that when they have the upper hand.
Continuing fighting gives more time to get those security guarantees.
I don’t see the logic here
Gives more time for negotiations
Zelenskys voice doesn’t matter. Thats the point. What matters is the people funding him with money and weapons.
What, you think Ukrainians are going to stop defending their homes just because Trump stops sending them fancy weapons? That’s not how this works. The war isn’t going to end. It’s just going to get a lot nastier.
At some point all of them will die. That’s how colonialism works.
The power dynamic just isn’t skewed enough here for that. Ukraine is not exactly a major world power, but Russia’s not exactly looking like a superpower either. Even if the US switching sides is enough for them to plant a flag in Kyiv, the simple fact of the matter is that Russia does not have the capacity to occupy a country the size of Ukraine. Planting a flag in Kyiv is the EASY part. It only gets harder from there. You only have to look at any war the US has been involved in to see that in action.
That’s not how genocide works. After the population is gone, its easy. Look at what the US and Canada did to North America. Look at what the US is doing right now to Gaza.
That’s not military occupations work. There are tens of millions of people in Ukraine. Even if you could kill them at a rate of 1 per second and they never fought back that would still be decades of killing. North America started with a lower population before white guys showed up and had every plague on the planet hitting the Americas at the same time to do most of the dirty work and it still took centuries. The sheer logistics of trying to kill everyone in Ukraine are just beyond the capacity of Russia to achieve, even if they didn’t resist. And that’s even assuming they lose the war, which got a lot more likely, but still isn’t a given. There just isn’t the political will in Russia to commit to centuries of genocide against serious opposition, no matter how much Putin wants it to be true.
That is how colonial genocide works.
There were tens of millions in America that were almost completely exterminated (some estimates range up to 100 million)
Yes, biological weapons help. And Russia has many weapons of mass destruction in their arsenal.
This. Especially Ukraine won’t just roll over anyway, they are still VERY aware of their suffering in the USSR and stuff like the Holodomor. The only thing that would happen is for Ukraine to become another country in a constant state of insurrection and civil war (I’m lacking the english vocabulary to properly describe it, but you get the point).
What part of your country are you willing to give to Russia to keep the peace?
And then repeat every few years until all of your country is russia
Isn’t peace grand?
He’s just bargaining. Internal preparations for the deal have already started. Such as taking Ukrainian oligarchs to court so they give up their mineral rights.
They are not in charge, the US/NATO is. They are merely only doing the fighting and dying.
As it was written decades ago by what people call a philanthropist for some reason:
the combination of manpower from Eastern Europe with the technical capabilities of NATO would greatly enhance the military potential of the Partnership because it would reduce the risk of body bags for NATO countries, which is the main constraint on their willingness to act.
They are very much in charge. They are the ones on the front lines, they don’t have to stop fighting just because Trump says something.
well they’re gonna have to fight with knives and rocks since it is the US that provides their weapons
LOL the people are putting recruitment centers on fire.
The kidnappers have to fight every time they try to kidnap some poor kid or granddad. zelenski, who has almost no suppport from the people and is illegally in charge tru not having elections will do anything his masters tell him.
It was very clear the UK/US didn’t want peace and sabotaged the deal they almost had. This has nothing to do with Trump, everything with a hopeless situation that already should’ve been clear even before the summer ‘offensive’ that got them literally nowhere.
But it took even more time for most propaganda good news fantasy media to have the courage to print the truth while reality was catching up to them. Hey even now there are still clowns egging them on saying they can win this. But you can think what you want, the facts and reality will decide, not wishful thinkingNice Russian propaganda you spreading.
How many rubles does it pay? Or are you paid in a currency that isn’t in freefall because of an illegal war.
Even what you said is true, that still does not justify an invasion.
LOL you really tick all the boxes of an unoriginal Reddit brainrot drone. Russian propaganda.
How many rubles does it pay?
I bet you also use the Xi bucks 100 social credits.
You’re cringe and boringWhat I said IS true, and NATO expansion with nukes right on Russia’s border + having illegal nazi the coup regime attack the ethnic Russians in the east is valid reason to intervene.
The ukes have been used as a proxy by the US , their usual MO. No sympathy for them.
Don’t you wish you were back on the Reddit circle jerk where you could have me banned for an opinion that goes against the US regime narrative.
Go cry over there.
I’ll give you this, you stay on message. But no. If things were as bad as you suggest then the front line would have collapsed and Russia would be in Kyiv right now.
The front collapses when they run out of people.
And that is a fact, it’s not a suggestion or opinion.
There aren’t going to more people to send.
Honestly do you think then can achieve anything more than going backwards slowly?It is the US that wants them to lower the age to 18.
To the last Ukrainian.
They benefit in plenty ways2 day old account throwing shit on the Ukrainians…
is that your brilliant 2 cents instead of anything remotely relevant?
Here’s something relevant:
Troll alert!
Your claim that Ukrainians are merely “doing the fighting and dying” under US and NATO direction, citing George Soros’s 1993 essay, is both a misinterpretation and a profound insult to the bravery and autonomy of the Ukrainian people.
In the essay, Soros discussed the potential for integrating Eastern European manpower with NATO’s technical capabilities to enhance collective security. This proposal aimed to create a more balanced and cooperative defense structure in the post-Cold War era, not to relegate Eastern Europeans to the role of expendable forces. Soros emphasized the importance of political and economic collaboration to support emerging democracies, with military considerations being just one facet of a comprehensive strategy.
Since Russia’s unprovoked invasion in February 2022, Ukraine has demonstrated remarkable resilience and independence in defending its sovereignty. The Ukrainian government and armed forces have made strategic decisions, leading successful counteroffensives and reclaiming occupied territories. Their determination has not only defied global expectations but has also galvanized international support.
Your remarks diminish the profound sacrifices made by Ukrainian soldiers and civilians. The resilience of Ukrainians is evident not only on the battlefield but also in their daily lives. Civilians have engaged in acts of defiance, from producing essential military supplies to maintaining cultural institutions under siege. To reduce their struggle to mere pawns in a geopolitical game is an affront to their courage and agency.
It is imperative to approach discussions about such critical matters with a well-informed perspective. Recognizing the agency and bravery of the Ukrainian people is not only a matter of accuracy but also of respect. Mischaracterizations not only distort the truth but also unjustly belittle the experiences of those enduring the hardships of war.
All those who defend a free world should acknowledge the undeniable evidence of Ukraine’s sovereign efforts and the extraordinary bravery of its people. Let us honor their sacrifices by portraying their struggle with the dignity and respect it unequivocally deserves.
both can be true, in the microcosm of the war of course regular Ukrainians have agency but on the grand scheme they were useful idiots for Washington to reduce Russia military capabilities, which ended up failing. Also very lucrative for weapon, energy and financial sectors for the US, not so much for europe or ukraine.
thanks chat GTP I hope your AI isn’t conscious and won’t be offended when I don’t read your BS essay
I took the time to look up the Soros essay, identify the quote to gather context, and craft a thoughtful response. GPTs are a tool—some use them to replace thinking, but the wise use them to enhance it. I stand by every word I wrote.
Your response, on the other hand, dismisses an argument you didn’t even bother to engage with. Instead of refuting my points, you crafted a strawman to wave away the discussion entirely. That speaks volumes—not about AI, but about you.
I didn’t use any AI to write this reply. But something tells me that doesn’t matter to you in the slightest.
ChatGTP is shit.
It is wildly unreliable at best and often straight up lying and giving misinformation.
The irony that you call yourself wise for using it. LOL
I did waste precious seconds reading the first lines before I noticed your cheap trickery.
If I recall it mentioned context, as you do this time.A little story about ‘context’ and factcheckers.
Probably ShitGPT got the mustard there.
I almost didn’t believe the appauling Soros quote the first time it got mentioned to me so I factchecked, since I’m wise.
One of the results was from one of those respectable, totally unbiased don’t fall for Ruzzia propaganda! factcheckers.Title:“Did Soros say this? Answer: no”
When you read the rest of this garbage they mention in fact that he did literally say this but “we have to look at the context and then we have to say he didn’t”.
Which is sometimes a valid argument.
Only problem, there was zero context to misunderstand or interpret this. So basically another lie to cover their first lie.
But anyway enough about this quote. There’s plenty of evidence for decades the US wanted this to happen. But something tells me that doesn’t matter to you in the slightest.Ah, the classic approach: dismiss, insult, deflect, and avoid any actual debate. Instead of engaging with the content, you ridicule the tool I used to refine my response—conveniently ignoring that I did my own research before ever consulting it. You also claim to value context while simultaneously insisting that a single sentence in a decades-old essay should be taken as gospel without any consideration for its broader meaning or intent."
“Your ‘fact-checker anecdote’ is particularly amusing, since it ironically proves my point. Context is precisely what separates informed discussion from cherry-picked outrage. But of course, why wrestle with complexity when you can just claim ‘there’s plenty of evidence’ without citing a single source? That’s not wisdom—it’s just lazy.”
"And yes, something does tell me that none of this will matter to you in the slightest. But at least I have the courtesy of engaging with ideas instead of hiding behind sneering dismissals. Enjoy the illusion of superiority—it’s the only argument you seem interested in making.
Now you want to gaslight me for not wanting to debate ShitGTP?
You sure have some nerve.a single sentence in a decades-old essay should be taken as gospel without any consideration for its broader meaning or intent.
And there we go, you believe the context excuse while I said THERE IS NO CONTEXT.
Nothing in that document negates that statement. If there is something that shows that part can be misinterpreted then YOU prove it.As I said there’s plenty of proof the US/west is was involved, from the funding decades ago and the failed orange revolution to the nazi coup that the west claim as peaceful while they clearly used arms and extreme violence.
It is also proven it was the regime changers who shot at protesters to escalate violence.
OC that is years later and the dammage is done, the MSM won’t report those things anyway.
I bet you also missed that in your ‘research’.
And I bet you also missed the leaked call where the US is deciding who should run that totally independent democratic country.
Or the west training and arming nazis to prepare for the war.
This while the Minsk agreements were in effect but admitted by Merkel they never ment to honor them.There’s plenty of things, maybe look further than the US regime echo-chamber.
https://thegrayzone.com/?s=ukraine https://www.mintpressnews.com/?s=ukraine
:::
When elephants fight, the grass gets trampled.
Elephants are intelligent.
There’s a lot of different kinds of intelligence.
Yeah but they all have some commonality, it’s dumb as shit bud.
I don’t think Ukraine will get Donbas and Crimea back. The Donetsk & Luhansk republics would violently resist any attempt by Kyiv to absorb them back into Ukraine.
The Donetsk & Luhansk republics would violently resist any attempt by Kyiv to absorb them back into Ukraine.
LOL
You know that whole rebellion thing was created by Russia right?
It’s funny to me how both sides say this about the other. There were two rebellions in Ukraine backed by foreign powers, and which one you think is legitimate and which one was created by foreign meddling doesn’t seem to have anything to do with any facts on the ground, it’s entirely about which global hegemon you support.
In reality, both the succession movement and Euromaidan involved a combination of foreign agitation and popular support, and it’s nowhere near as black and white as either side pretends.
Fuck your disingenuous bothesidesism.
Western support of Euromaidan (what you erroneously call “meddling”) isn’t remotely comparable to the straight acts of war that Russia committed in the Donbas.
Of course not. It’s not meddling when we do it, because we’re the good guys.
Our support of an organic democratic movement to overthrow the old corrupt regime, their meddling support of proxies to undermine the legitimate government.
Ah fuck, I just see that you are lemmy.ml tankie scum. Of course you are siding with autocratic fascists. blocked
Hey fuckwit, you didn’t reply to a single thing I said.
Europe supported the Ukrainian people vocally, but verbally during the Maidan.
Russia armed and funded extreme Russian nationalists, you know like actual nazi scum, and sent them to Ukraine led by FSB officers, controlled directly from the Kremlin. Nobody in the Donbas asked for this, except for retarded nazi scum.
Indeed and most of the Russian supporting rebels are fertilizing Ukraine’s soil.
Look, however it started, Russia has had significant portions of those territories for a decade. They’ve been arresting dissidents, running propaganda, and making their roots as deep as possible. It’s not going to be easy for Ukraine to just resume administration of those areas.
I live in a country that was occupied by Nazi Germany, where the Nazis did the exact same things and put the local Nazi sympathizers in charge of local administration. It didn’t turn us into a country with deep Nazi roots.
We just imprisoned and shot those fuckers after the war.
I hope it’s that easy. I fear it’s not.
Yes, I do know that. What difference does it make to my point?
Everything, because the people of D&L will not violently resist. They were peaceful citizens of Ukraine, who overwhelmingly voted for Ukrainian independence in 1991.
Define the “people”. Currently, the separatists in charge in the republics are openly pro-Russian and welcomed the annexation with open arms. They won’t step down quietly and accept reintegration into Ukraine. In the event that Ukraine officially claims victory in Donbas, there will be an insurgency there for years, backed by the Kremlin. There’s already been one since 2014.
I hope you don’t believe it won’t be similar the other way around, because it will. Citizens loyal to Ukraine won’t just roll over and accept the annexation no matter what the US and Russian regimes are saying. They’ll most likely keep fighting as they do now.
Honestly, the best that could happen to resolve the issue and not causing it to become a century-long problem with “generational hate” fueling a lasting conflict would be for EU countries as well as other allies (Australia, Japan, South Korea etc) to go all-in and keep supporting Ukraine, in a way it overwhelms Russia. Of course I know how unrealistic that sounds right now…
Yes, unfortunately the situation with the conquered territories seems pretty grim.
There will be violence no matter who’s in charge. There are people violently resisting Russian rule in those regions right now. It’s not going to be easy for anyone.
He should crash the party. Suitably guarded of course
With a big bomb. Israel showed that tens of thousands of innocent people can be deemed as an acceptable collateral damage if some terrorists are dead, and Putin is a terrorist, so it should be perfectly acceptable to ace the motherfucher with a big bomb
