- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
Hamas tried to sneak its fighters out of the Gaza Strip in ambulances that evacuated dozens of wounded Palestinians to Egypt earlier this week, a senior Biden administration official said Friday.
Hamas had compiled a list of the seriously wounded that it wanted to evacuate from Gaza for treatment in Egypt, along with thousands of foreign nationals looking to flee the enclave.
The list was then vetted by Egypt and the United States, which found that a third of the names on it were of Hamas fighters, the administration official said, adding that the list was rejected and none of the 76 wounded Palestinians who were ultimately evacuated in ambulances out of Gaza were members of the terror group.
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Isn’t it convenient how every time the US or Israel bombs civilians they automatically know they we’re secretly terrorists the whole time?
Almost as if they were intentionally targeting terrorists…
Not saying they aren’t lying, but this proves exactly nothing.
You’re absolutely correct.
Another plausible scenario is they’re killing potential targets, but they’re not too picky about it. And if anybody asks they will confirm that there were actually terrorists there
Or terrorist sympathizers
Or people who hang out with terrorists
Or people who live near terrorists
Or people who promote narratives that terrorists take advantage of …
We just don’t know, we know the explosions happen, we know people are dying, the rest is propaganda from both directions
I think they must present their considerations/justifications to neutral third party, but there’s danger of very potent intelligence being publicized. Imagine if IDF/US military had a high ranking informant among Hamas leadership, who then let them know that they plan to use ambulance movement to smuggle forces/equipment in and out of Gaza. If they publish it far and wide, that person is in grave danger, but more impactful - they won’t be able to provide Intel anymore…
Hamas executes collaborators regularly so you’re right.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosab_Hassan_Yousef this guy defected because he saw it when he was in an Israeli prison.
Yousef said he saw the light after a stint in an Israeli jail during the mid-1990s. At Megiddo Prison, he witnessed Hamas inmates leading a brutal year-long campaign to weed out supposed Israeli collaborators. “During that time, Hamas tortured and killed hundreds of prisoners,” he said, recalling vivid memories of needles being inserted under finger nails and bodies charred with burning plastics. Many, if not all, had nothing to do with Israeli intelligence. “I will never forget their screams,” he continued. “I started asking myself a question. What if Hamas succeeded in destroying Israel and building a state. Will they destroy our people in this way?”[11]
I won’t bother digging up the sources unless someone asks, but Israel notified the population of Gaza earlier in the war that their families would be relocated to safety (I. E. Given Israeli citizenship and a place to live) and given a financial reward if they snitched on Hamas in any way that materially helped the war goal of freeing the hostages. There’s probably thousands of collaborators there now.
Ya it’s like they’re using the multiple billions of dollars we’ve invested in spy satellites and other technologies to track people against Hamas or something…
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Is the US intelligence that good?
It just seems that in USA it’s self they can know about a guy whose been calling for help because he’s on the verge of shooting up a place and they don’t do nothing about it until they start shooting things up. US intelligence seems incredibly dysfunctional and if they can’t sort things out at home I don’t know how they would figure these things out abroad.
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Fair point.
Oh so they just have a big list of every Hamas member and can vette them from name alone?
Ahmad Awad? Yeah, sorry bud, there’s a couple hundred of you on the list.
People have social security numbers, you know. It’s not some desert with camels where everyone is called Ahmad Awad.
Really shameful that the US is aiding and abetting genocide.
I’m sure Hamas would slaughter the Israelis if they got the chance—oh wait they are. Both sides of the coin is genocide.
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Par for the course. One group of violent European settlers defending another.
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Maybe, I mean that would be exactly the sort of data I would expect my intelligence services to acquire. Especially in a place like Egypt that has suffered so much from the crimes of the Muslim Brotherhood.
Why not just let them through? Arrest them on the other side. They’re terrorists right? Arresting them and giving them a trial shouldn’t be an issue. They’re vulnerable when they cross the border
Actually: why not let memebers of Hamas surrender themselves at the border? If it’s a war, accepting voluntary POWs should be a net positive
Israel doesn’t operate the Egypt side and Egypt wants to not be an active participant beyond maintaining the crossing. They especially don’t want to run a PoW camp.
Working with the IDF directly to transfer prisoners to them would probably start shit in Egypt Sisi doesn’t want to start as it would be seen as entering the war I guess. Iran backed Houthi rebels in Yemen are already doing War Crimes on Egyptian hospitals for their current stance.
Well, hopefully they instead just stay where they are, and being grievously wounded, die from them. Unfortunately some will probably survive to keep fighting.
Actually: why not let memebers of Hamas surrender themselves at the border? If it’s a war, accepting voluntary POWs should be a net positive
Members of Hamas are considered part of the Muslim Brotherhood (as they started as an offshoot). And because of the mass murder and shit the Brotherhood has done in Egypt over the years; they’ve been summarily banned. So Hamas members are not allowed to enter Egypt.
That’s part of why Hamas had to supply a list of names before sending them so Egypt could ensure no Hamas members were part of the list.
Why not allow them to pass and then arrest them at the border? Surely better than bombing random buildings that may or may not have Hamas fighters inside.
Doing that would prompt Hamas to stop cooperating with allowing civilians to seek medical assistance outside of Gaza.
Literally every humanitarian thing Hamas permits it does so with the intention of funneling benefits to its own fighters and members.
It’s the same problem as African warlords intercepting and sitting on medical aid intended for impoverished villagers.
A system which perfectly excluded Hamas cronies and fighters from receiving the benefits is one which Hamas will begin targeting for attack because they would rather Palestinians die than be able to get aid through means outside of Hamas’ approval and exploitation
Egypt doesn’t want to deal with that. That’s actually why what were reticent at first to help and why neighboring Arab countries won’t take refugees. Radical militants have snuck in with Palestinian refugees before and caused civil wars. They even killed the King of Jordan in what was eventually called Black September.
Also allowing a war crime (using ambulances to transport fighters and/or arms) and defending it like this emboldens them to continue doing it to the detriment of civilians since they won’t face consequences.
So, blow up buildings that MIGHT have actual terrorists but also DEFINITELY have civilians is the better course of action?
Israel is already breaking international law and committing war crimes in Gaza, so what’s a few more?
Arresting someone without bombing the 50 civilians nearby them is allowing a war crime?
What brand of glue do you eat?
The kind that has a degree from a top university in engineering.
Doesn’t matter, your opinion is still lame as fuck.
Oh damn, you better not name that university. You would single handedly tank the value of their degrees and their glue
Reposting.
Israel doesn’t operate the Egypt side and Egypt wants to not be an active participant beyond maintaining the crossing. They especially don’t want to run a PoW camp.
Working with the IDF directly to transfer prisoners to them would probably start shit in Egypt Sisi doesn’t want to start as it would be seen as entering the war I guess. Iran backed Houthi rebels in Yemen are already doing War Crimes on Egyptian hospitals for their current stance.
Why not arrest them then, if they have proof of being terrorists?
Reposting.
Israel doesn’t operate the Egypt side and Egypt wants to not be an active participant beyond maintaining the crossing. They especially don’t want to run a PoW camp.
Working with the IDF directly to transfer prisoners to them would probably start shit in Egypt Sisi doesn’t want to start as it would be seen as entering the war I guess. Iran backed Houthi rebels in Yemen are already doing War Crimes on Egyptian hospitals for their current stance.
Also allowing a war crime (using ambulances to transport fighters and/or arms) and defending it like this emboldens them to continue doing it to the detriment of civilians since they won’t face consequences.
It’s an active warzone.
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2 / 3 palestinians in gaza support hamas. They won’t arrest them.
and then what? terrorists cant be reprogrammed. just arrest them and then… what?
What happens when someone is arrested? That’s what.
so what do you do with them? hold them indefinitely?
I’d say killing people is considered a no-no in general
I mean usually that’s what due process is like. You can also execute them, but that’s usually considered a war crime.
Not really tho, if they are terrorists and not soldiers
They’re both, though. Hamas is the government of Gaza.
Technically Hamas is the government of Palestine, albeit no election for many years, what defines soldier vs terrorist if the terrorists are working for the government?
The fuck are you talking about? There are multiple deradicalization programs globally, at least two major government run ones in the Middle East.
I understand the skepticism, but this is where it’s good to know your history. Radical militants have snuck in with Palestinian refugees before in the past. This has happened before.
It’s why Egypt was so reticent to accept refugees. These radicals have snuck in and caused civil strife. They even killed the King of Jordan, in what’s called Black September. This is why neighboring Arab countries aren’t taking in refugees either.
Hamas is utterly evil.
Oh I’m not really that skeptical of the report. Hamas has done this multiple times before.
🧐
This explanation sounds too flimsy to believe. Seems more like a cover story after the fact for the insane bombing of hospitals and a caravan of ambulances within a clear pattern of overall genocide.
while considered a war crime those crimes only ever apply in some weird optic bullshit way like nobody gets punished for this shit at all so honestly I don’t really care that they do this. I care more it takes from civilians but still feel Israel forces these tactics.
Meanwhile Israel is using WP weapons and nobody seems to respond to that.
This conflict is war crimes galore but one of these combatants has far more resources than the other. That power imbalance should be considered
WP is allowed for artillery range finding and is the US procedure as well.
That’s what’s it’s been used for. In Lebanon most of the wounded civilians got sent home the same day because Hezbollah doesn’t do the human shield shit to the same genocidal intent.
The Rome treaty you are thinking of Israel is not a party to BTW. Same as the USA.
It’s not like Hamas hasn’t been caught using ambulances to smuggle military goods around before.
I can believe this happens without condoning just bombing the shit out of any group of ambulances because they might contain fighters.
I think these hamas ambulances are as real as the middle eastern WMDs.
Forgive me if I don’t take everything the US says on the matter at face value.
It was a joint verification with Egypt
aka terrorists do terrorist things
Turns out a lot of people on the left think the jihadist shit that hurts civilians is justified because their side is oppressed.
It’s disgusting and perpetuates the cycle of violence. Before the current war things were improving. Israelis were fighting hard to remove Netanyahu from power, including the military (air force) striking.
Edit: No one cares about the Israelis (Including the 20% Arab citizen pop) entering the west bank at the risk of being murdered to defend Olive picking workers from Israeli settlers and IDF clowns who disgrace their uniforms.
Also trying to smuggle in military supplies in humanitarian aid:
Meanwhile, two senior Israeli officials told The Times of Israel that Israeli inspectors earlier this week uncovered several oxygen concentrators meant to aerate the tunnels operated by terror organizations in Gaza.
“These weren’t for use in the hospitals, but below them. That’s why they were smuggled among boxes of cookies,” one of the senior Israeli officials said, adding that the entire truck in which the oxygen concentrators were found was barred from entering Gaza.
I mean, how do they know where they’re meant to be used? If Gazans can’t get oxygen concentrators legally they’re very much right to smuggle them.
right to smuggle them
They were told by the US and the UN what types of aid will be allowed in. Smuggling only hurts Gaza from getting the aid it needs.
But the aid it needs includes oxygen concentrators. Some people need these things not to die.
That’s how you end up with a blockade and no more aid entering Gaza. Is that what you want for those people?
Well I want people who need oxygen concentrators to get them and not die.
The Israeli source was trying to claim these have no medical use but a quick Google search reveals that indeed they are mostly used for medical reasons and can be found in hospitals or at the homes of patients.
Fighters need medical treatment like anyone else when they get wounded, just saying …
Nah. Terrorists who cut people’s heads off can have medical treatment when they surrender.
I wish it was as simple as good vs evil. Sorry to tell you but the world is not a lotr movie, in fact it´s quite complicated …
There’s no need to be cutting civilian’s heads off regardless of your back story. That is evil.
That is an obvious and trivial truth that I of course agree with. However, murdering innocent palestinian olive farmers, to steal their land and build illegal settlements on it also seems pretty evil, right?
Obviously
They won’t answer, because they can’t see Palestinians as humans.
I didn’t say anything about either side. All I said is cutting people’s heads off is evil. I also specifically mentioned civilians without stating a side. Great assumptions though.
For the record both sides are monsters. Whether they were driven to it in your opinion or not. And the civilians on both sides are victims.
For the record both sides are monsters. Whether they were driven to it in your opinion or not. And the civilians on both sides are victims.
I see now that we in fact share the same opinion.
Sorry then. The previous poster mentioned be headings that weren’t verified.
I never said it was simple. But Hamas murdered completely innocent civilians - including babies - that they actively and intentionally targeted. They are irredeemable monsters.
IDF does the same though
It is simple. Want medical treatment, surrender. Want to conduct acts of terror FAFO
Not in this case…
In any case!
There are many people on both sides who see it the way you do. Funny part is, what side is good and what side is evil changes, based on who you ask. Based on individual perspective, ones terrorist is another ones freedom fighter. Please understand that ones judgement is only a personal, subjective opinion and never an objective truth and that one atrocity can never justify another atrocity.
Like you said later, the world isn’t simple good and evil. If they don’t surrender, they don’t get treatment. The IDF would hardly treat a member of Hamas and Hamas would hardly treat a member of the IDF. A group treating civilians can tell members of both to fuck off.
Nope, doctors even swear to not do that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath
World isn’t simple good and evil. They may have a symbolic oath, but nothing says everyone else has to follow it.
You are entitled to have that opinion, have a nice day.
But you’re not entitled to enter Egypt to get it if your a member of Hamas, as the Muslim Brotherhood and it’s offshoots are banned there.
Every injured person deserves treatment, no exceptions, anything else would be inhumane.
Would you force Germany to admit a Nazi if they were sick?
What do you mean by admit? You mean to treat? Yes of course. As I said, imo every sick or injured person deserves medical treatment, no matter their background. Also, when they are healthy again, I would want to see that Nazi getting put in front of a court, questioned, convicted and punished as the law dictates.
Admit, to allow to enter.
Yes of course I would, how else could they convict him for his crimes?
Egypt doesn’t want to admit people from a group that successfully terrorized their whole nation for an extended period of time. They have no interest in convicting them.
Yeah these people killed and raped babies. Then they laughed about it. They don’t deserve shit until they surrender.
Youre talking about israel, right? The people that have been reported doing that for decades?
Nobody’s raping babies.
Source? Who am I kidding, you made it up
“Israeli forces in Kfar Aza and Be’eri[112] reported that they found bodies of victims mutilated. One IDF commander told a reporter from i24 News that 40 babies had been killed, out of what one estimate described as at least 100 civilian victims.[113][93][114][115][116][117]”
. That’s the best you’ll get from me.
Thanks for taking the time. But there was no mention of them raping babies.
If you keep reading the wiki page, there is.
Read it twice. No raped babies. Did a word search for rape and babies. Horrific tales of Palestinian girls in Israeli jails.
Those stories regarding killing babies have been shown conclusively to be false, and the journalists responsible have publicly retracted the statements and apologized for the disinformation.
There were definitely dead babies wtf do you mean? Has “there were no 40 beheaded babies” now morphed into “no dead babies at all” or what?
I wish it was as simple as good vs evil. Sorry to tell you but the world is not a lotr movie, in fact it´s quite complicated …
I never said it was. The world is full of shades of grey.
But the way this group has tried to resist oppression is despicable and cannot be excused.
@photonic_sorcerer @Nacktmull It can’t be excused yet. No one is working diligently to liberate Palestine from Israel. No one has in decades
True, and yet non-violent revolutions have succeded in the past. Hamas wants to raze Israel from the face of the earth. They have no place in a civilized society.
I fully agree but wonder why you don´t mention the other half of this truth. Obviously human slaughtering terrorists have no place in a civilized society. However, it must also be said that there is no place in a civilized society for right-extremist-racists, who murder residents and occupy their land to build illegal settlements.
Agreed
@photonic_sorcerer oh btw, saying “Hamas wants to raze Israel from the earth”, while Israel builds settlements, refusing to negotiate, commits ethnic cleansing, and brutalizes Palestinians in a myriad of other ways proves you have no idea what’s going on over there
@photonic_sorcerer I would agree with you except for the fact that Israel learned from that, and outlawed peaceful protesting. Yeah, if you peacefully protest against Israel in Israel, they’ll throw you in prison. They made their own problem here.
Israel has proven that all they learned from the Holocaust was how to do it betterBruh
Source?
I never said it was. The world is full of shades of grey.
You first comment seemed to imply a different worldview, apologies.
But the way this group has tried to resist oppression is despicable and cannot be excused.
Of course it can´t. There is guerrilla warfare and then there is barbaric slaughtering of helpless civilians. Those are absolutely not the same.
No it’s not, see the reaction of journalists/politicians who attended the screening of 43 minutes of 7-Oct atrocities…
Both sides have been in an exchange of atrocities for decades now. What is your point?
The active Astro turfing in this thread, and on lemmy in general, when facts conflict with a pro Hamas narrative is fucked up.
E: You guys are making it really obvious when 5 or more down votes are applied all at once.
Quote the pro hamas narrative or are we supposed to take your vague word for it?
It’s called checking the down vote history which is public if you run a federated instance.
Or how certain instances you frequent ban people for posting facts.
Link specifically to some that support your claim? You made the claim, you support it.
You mentioned it happened in this thread. Show me please? You also said it’s in lemmy in general, honestly please share some evidence or take your statement elsewhere where people will take you on face value.
Yes yes, good to see the news from the unbiased source of…lowers glasses…Times of Israel
Other places are reporting it too. If you have a counter source please post.
Edit: the sudden flux of down votes is extremely suspicious and it’s just a fact.
Reposting here
re: smuggling siege equipment (oxygen concentrators should be amongst the medical aid) amongst humanitarian aid food…
https://youtu.be/W4gDfSNMRx4?si=3NhT_Xt2Dxxkp3A- at around 6 minutes you can see Hamas using concentrated oxygen in the tunnels to refresh themselves. Lot of morons with “underground mine experience” who also don’t know its a standard practice outside of Gaza. https://www.amsj.com.au/dont-hold-breath/
A highly divided topic is bound to have a larger percentage of downvotes, but votes don’t matter so why care?
I don’t actually care about votes it just shows how bitter some people are, and want to bury facts that conflict with whatever their entrenched position is to steer the conversation.
Believing there is a righteous cause side here (as in in Gaza) other than the actual civilians who don’t celebrate and materially support violence against other civilians is a fools errand. Also fuck settlers in the west bank and Netanyahu im not even touching that with a ten foot pole it’s just bad.
Unfortunately the situation had deteriorated to the point that Hamas is actively hurting their own people’s chances at a peaceful life directly. It’s just a tragedy.
Edit: lmfao at the salty loser who went through the entire comment history on this account and down voted every comment. That’s all you can do, along with raging online, you aren’t in the Levant. You’re not from there. We don’t care about your opinions.
Sadly both governments have no desire to discuss a peaceful solution. They both just want to keep killing.
I popped off at the now removed comment under my other reply so this isn’t directed at you, but thought I would repost it so other people could see it. It is incredibly demeaning, infantilizing, and insulting how westerners and lefties from the rest of the global south twist this conflict and the historical context around it. My mother is actually an Afro-Cuban refugee with a family with many members who fled the Castro regime for reasons other than being white American business people. He would jail them by the thousand, rape, and beat them. My Pale-fucking-stinian dad married my mom because she had a child, my brother, who no one was going to care for. Meanwhile lefties defend the Castro and modern regime on the basis of it improving literacy and Healthcare. My now orphaned reply follows:
I’m from the area. Family been there for 500+ years.
If Israel is an apartheid state so is the US, Canada, and every other Arab nation that allows cross borders workers under shit conditions. It’s especially bad in the gulf states, they steal passports from immigrants and turn them into modern day slaves.
The shit in the west bank is indeed bad and a new government needs to prosecute to the fullest extent anyone participating.
I’ve lived through this conflict my entire life.
When Black September happened the Jordanian army actually Indiscriminately shelled the Palestinian refugee camps killing so so many.
It’s ok I know all the keyboard warriors from the west only want to hear from “the right Palestinians”. I have stuff my dad gave me from the 1700s Ottoman Empire before he died. His grandfather got murdered for not being down with the cause of Arab nationalism post ww1 when they started killing the local jews and dissenters, not the European zionists, the people who were local community leaders for generations.
I’m sorry you and your family went through this. But just because Arab nationalists were not good people in a lot of situation doesn’t really have much bearing on the current reality. Whether you like the Fidayieen or not doesn’t make your views on this digestible. The one honest position you can and should now is to be opposed to Israeli oppression because you understand what it’s like to live under an oppressed system.
Edit: and yeah I will continue you downvote you and disagree because despite your personal story, your opinions honestly suck and sometimes look like they are taken straight from IDF propaganda which everyone has lots trust in.
I think the best thing to hope for is the complete removal of the governmental apparatus of Hamas and a 20 year (1+ generation) re-education campaign to “de-nazify” the civilian population. Japan and Germany are now staunch US allies despite a similar level of bombing and destruction. This should be coupled with extensive infrastructure build up to improve the life of the civilians in Gaza.
The first step there is unfortunately rooting out the governmental apparatus of the region…
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I’m from the area. Family been there for 500+ years.
If Israel is an apartheid state so is the US, Canada, and every other Arab nation that allows cross borders workers under shit conditions. It’s especially bad in the gulf states, they steal passports from immigrants and turn them into modern day slaves.
The shit in the west bank is indeed bad and a new government needs to prosecute to the fullest extent anyone participating.
I’ve lived through this conflict my entire life.
When Black September happened the Jordanian army actually Indiscriminately shelled the Palestinian refugee camps killing so so many.
Edit: It’s ok I know all the keyboard warriors from the west only want to hear from “the right Palestinians”. I have stuff my dad gave me from the 1700s Ottoman Empire before he died. His grandfather got murdered for not being down with the cause of Arab nationalism post ww1 when they started killing the local jews and dissenters, not the European zionists, the people who were local community leaders for generations.
israel is an apartheid state. so is the usa, but not for the reason you’re suggesting. the people you’re talking about can return to a sovereign nation with borders and taxes and armies. the subjugated indigenous people are relegated to open air prisons just like the palestinians are, though.
Hamas are a lot of things but they are not the Nazis. We reserve that name to Israel actually committing a genocide now.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/W4gDfSNMRx4?si=3NhT_Xt2Dxxkp3A-
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
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You are being downvoted because this isn’t an excuse to kill civilians either. Some military faction smugglers foods? Well fuck me sideways I’d never have guessed… Now let’s turn our eyes back towards Israel and the genocide it wants to commit.
Says the westerner to a Palestinian.
It’s a lot more than just smuggling in food.
Right now there’s videos being shared on Arabic news of Hamas gunning down their own people in the Evac corridor. The IDF is trying to clear the actual genocidal religious nut jobs out under fire. To save civilian lives.
Do I need to also remind you Hamas uses child soldiers? That half the dead kids in the 2019 protests were indoctrinated and martyring themselves?
That their fucking leaders called for my brother and sister’s blood to flow?
The IDF has been restrained and you are all blind. You don’t live there. You never will. Go read about the bombings of Germany and Japan and come back to me.
Says the westerner to a Palestinian.
You’d be shocked but I’m both.
Whatever Hamas does, the way Israel responds is unacceptable. It shoots through 50 babies to get to one Hamas fighter. This isn’t self defence. This is using self defence to kill babies.
There are thousands of videos we have of Israel committing genocide in Gaza in the name of fighting Hamas. This is the pressing issue now.
Share the link to the video of Hamas shooting people down the corridor, would you? Because according to Arab media no one went through and people decided not to take that road because they don’t trust Israel because Israel keeps bombing areas it declared safe. .
We don’t have any evidence that Qassam brigades or other factions do this. What we have is tens of reports confirming Israel does it again and again and again.
