Here’s the specific timestamp of the incident you mentioned in case you wanted to actually see it: https://youtu.be/aqsiWCLJ1ms?t=1190
The car wanted to move through the intersection on a green left turn arrow. I’ve seen a lot of human drivers do the same. In any case, its fixed now and never was part of any public release.
The video didn’t end there, it was near the middle. What you’re referring to is a regression specifically with the HW3 model S that failed to recognize one of the red lights. Now I’m sure that sounds like a huge deal, but here’s the thing…
This was a demo of a very early alpha release of FSD 12 (current public release 11.4.7) representing a completely new and more efficient method of utilizing the neural network for driving and has already been fixed. It is not released to anyone outside of a select few Tesla employees. Other than that it performed flawlessly for over 40 minutes in a live demo.
Other than that it performed flawlessly for over 40 minutes in a live demo.
I get that this is an alpha, but the problem with full self driving is that’s way worse than what users want. If chatgpt gave you perfect information for 40 minutes (it doesn’t) and then huge lies once, we’d be using it everywhere. You can validate the lies.
With FSD, that threshold means a lot of people would have terrible accidents. No amount of perfect driving outside of that window would make you feel very happy.
it has to perform flawlessly 99.999999% of the time. The number of 9s matters. Otherwise, you are paying some moron to kill you and perhaps other people.
ok so im totally in agreement but 99.999999% is one accident per hundred million miles traveled. I dont think there should be any reasonable expectation that such a technology can ever possibly get that far without real world testing. Which is precisely where we are now. Maybe at 4 or 5 9s currently.
If you do actually want to have that level of safety, which lets be honest we all do, or ideally 100% safety, how would you propose such a system be tested and deemed safe if not how it’s currently being done?
I’m sure you’re just going to downvote this and move on without reading but I’m going to post it anyway for posterity.
First, a little about me. I am a software engineer by trade with expertise in cloud and AI technologies. I have been an FSD beta tester since late 2020 with tens of thousands of incident-free miles logged on it.
I’m familiar with all of these incidents. Its great that they’re in chronological order, that will be important later.
I need to set some context and history because it confuses many people when they refer to the capabilities of autopilot and FSD. Autopilot and FSD (Full Self-Driving) are not the same thing. FSD is a $12,000 option on top of any Tesla, and no Tesla built prior to 2016 has the hardware capability to run FSD.
The second historical point is that FSD did not have any public release until mid-2022, with some waves of earlier releases going to the safest drivers starting in mid-2021. Prior to that it was exclusive to Tesla employees and select few trusted beta testers in specific areas. Any of the issues in this article prior to mid-2021 are completely irrelevant to the topic.
Tesla’s autopilot system is an LKAS (Lane keep assist system). This is the same as is offered in Honda (Honda Sensing), Nissan (Pro Pilot Assist), Subaru, Cadillac, etc. Its capabilities are limited to keeping you in your lane (via a front-facing camera) and maintaining distance to the car in front of you (via radar, or cameras in later models). It does not automatically change lanes. It does not navigate for you. It does not make turns or take exits. It does not understand most road signs. Until 2020 it did not even know what a red light was. It is a glorified cruise control and has always been presented as such. Tesla has never advertised this as any sort of “hands-off” system where the driver does not need to pay attention. They do not allow the driver to lose attention from the road in FSD either, requiring hands-on the wheel and constant torque as well as eyes on the road (via an interior camera) in order to work. If you are caught not paying attention enough times the system will disengage and even kick you out of the program with enough violations.
OK, now that being said, lets dig in:
November 24, 2022: FSD malfunction causes 8-car pile-up on Bay Bridge
I’m from the area and have driven this exact spot hundreds of times on FSD and have never experienced anything even remotely close to what is shown here
“Allegedly” with FSD engaged
Tesla FSD “phantom” braking does not behave like this, and never has in the past. Teslas have 360 degree vision and are aware of traffic in front of and behind them.
Notice at the beginning of the video that this car was in the process of a lane change, this introduces a couple of possibilities as to what happened here, namely:
Teslas do have a feature under autopilot/FSD that if after multiple warnings for the driver to pay attention and no engagement, the car will slow down and pull over to the shoulder and stop. This particular part of the bay bridge does not have a shoulder, so it stopped where it is. This seems unlikely, since neural networks are very capable of identifying what a shoulder is and that its in an active lane of traffic, and even with tesla’s massive fleet of vehicles on FSD there are no other recorded instances of this happening anywhere else.
This particular spot on the bay bridge eastbound has a very sudden and sharp exit to Yerba Buena Island. What I think happened is that the driver was aiming for this exit, saw that they were about to miss it and tapped the brake and put on the turn signal not realizing that they just disengaged FSD. The car then engaged regen braking and came to a full stop.
When a tesla comes to a full stop automatically (an emergency stop) it puts the hazards on automatically. This has been a feature since the v1 autopilot days. This car’s hazards do not come on after the stop.
What seems especially weird to me is that the driver continued to let the car sit there at a full stop while traffic piled up behind them. In FSD you are always in control of your own car and all it would have taken is tapping the accelerator pedal to get moving again. FSD will always relinquish control over the car to you if you tap the brakes or grab and move the steering wheel hard enough. Unless there was some mechanical issue that brought the car to a stop and prevented it from moving, in which case this is not the fault of the FSD software.
Looking at how quickly (or lack thereof) the car slowed down this seems to very clearly be the car using regen braking, not emergency braking. I’m almost positive this means that FSD was disengaged completely.
We don’t have all the facts on this case yet and I’ll be anxious to see how this plays out in court but there are definitely many red flags on this one that have me questioning what actually happened here, but I doubt if FSD has anything to do with it.
If my earlier point is true this is actually an instance of an accident being caused because the driver disengaged self-driving. The car would have been much safer if the driver wasn’t even there.
April 22, 2022: Model Y in “summon mode” tries to drive through a $2 million jet
This one is a favorite among the tesla hate community. Understandably so.
Smart summon has 0 to do with FSD or even autopilot. It is a party trick to be used under very specific supervised processes
Smart summon relies exclusively on the front camera and ultrasonic sensors
While smart summon is engaged, the user still has full control over their car via the phone app. If the car does anything unexpected you only need to release your finger from the button and the car stops immediately. The “driver” did not do this and was not supervising the car, the car did not see the jet because it was entirely above the ultrasonic sensors, and as I’m sure you can understand the object recognition isn’t exactly trained on parked airplanes.
The app and the car remind the driver each and every time it is engaged that they need to be within a certain range and within eyesight of the car to use it. If you remote control your car into an obstacle and it causes an accident, its your fault, period.
Tesla is working on a new version of smart summon which will make this feature more useful in the future.
February 8, 2022: FSD nearly takes out bicyclist as occupants brag about system’s safety
I suggest actually watching the video here. What happened is highly at odds with what is actually in the video, but the vid is just over an hour long so I bet most people don’t bother watching it.
“It wouldn’t have hit them, it definitely wouldn’t have hit them. Do we need to cut that?” “No, you can keep it in”
If you look at what was happening on the car’s display, it detected someone entering the crosswalk and stepping out into traffic on the left side. The car hit the brake, sounded an alert and swerved to the right. There was a bicycle in front of where the car swerved but at no point was it about to “nearly take out a bicyclist”. It did definitely overreact here out of safety but at no point was anyone in danger.
Relatively speaking this is a very old version of FSD software, just after the first wave of semi-public release.
December 6, 2021: Tesla accused of faking 2016 Full Self Driving video
lol
March 17, 2021: Tesla on Autopilot slams into stationary Michigan cop car
Now we’re getting into pre-FSD autopilot. See above comments about the capabilites of autopilot. Feel free to compare these to other cars LKAS systems. You will see that there are still lots of accidents across the board even with LKAS. That is because it is an assist system and the driver is still fully responsible and in-control of the car.
June 1, 2020: Tesla Model 3 on Autopilot crashes into overturned truck
Again, pre-FSD. If the driver didn’t see the overturned truck and disengaged to stop then I’m not sure how anyone expects a basic LKAS system to be able to do that for them.
March 1, 2019: NHTSA, NTSB investigating trio of fatal Tesla crashes
This one involves a fatality, unfortunately. However, the car was not self-driving. There is something else very important to point out here:
The feature that allows Teslas to change lanes automatically on the freeway (Navigate on Autopilot) was not released until a year after this accident happened. That means, that if AP was engaged in this accident, the driver deliberately instructed the car via engaging the turn signal to merge into that truck.
May 7, 2016: First known fatality involving Tesla’s Autopilot system
Now we’re getting way back into the V1 autopilot systems which weren’t even made by tesla. This uses a system called MobilEye and is made by a third party and is even less capable than V2 autopilot
So, there we go. FSD has been out to the public for a few years now to a massive fleet of vehicles, driving collectively millions upon millions of miles and this is the best we’ve got in terms of a list showing how “Dangerous” it is? That is pretty remarkable.
Interesting, you wrote an entire dissertation on why you think this is all a false flag about Full Self Driving, but it seems to be mostly anecdotal or what you think is happening. Being a “software by trade” isn’t enough to face the facts that something fishy is 100% going on with Tesla’s autopilot system.
“The last time NHTSA released information on fatalities connected to Autopilot, in June 2022, it only tied three deaths to the technology. Less than a year later, the most recent numbers suggest 17 fatalities, with 11 of them happening since May 2022. The Post notes that the increase in the number of crashes happened alongside a rapid expansion of Tesla’s “Full Self-Driving” software from around 12,000 vehicles to almost 400,000 in about a year”
What’s fishy about it? You realize 40,000 people die every year from car accidents, meaning 110 die every single day, and you’re referencing 17 fatalities spread out over a few years as some big crisis. This tech (from any manufacturer) isn’t going to prevent 100% of accidents, and there’s not much you can do when drivers willingly drive their car into the side of a semi just like they did before this technology existed.
I won’t argue AP, FSD, or any other system doesn’t have it’s issues but most of these responses are overblown sensationalism.
I am not a “Software by trade” that was a typo. Believe it or not I wrote that entire thing on mobile.
Correlation does not equal causation. Tesla sold a huge number more vehicles in the past 2 years than ever before. Also in 2019,2020 and part of 2021 not a lot of people were driving due to the pandemic.
And, yes, a lot of the first incident I covered there was mostly anecdotal or what I think is happening. Importantly, what I think is happening as someone with years and tens of thousands of miles of experience using FSD beta. I do not have the facts and also importantly, neither do you. I am interested to see what comes out of that court case, but from where I sit I do not think FSD was involved at all.
Please let me know where I have misrepresented facts, I will either correct them or cite sources.
Again, Teslas come with a factory installed 360 dashcam. It records all the time. Where are all of the videos of these FSD related incidents?
ffs that is the exact same article again. Please read my other comment (the huge one) let me know if anything doesn’t make sense or you find anything factually inaccurate.
Its saved on to a thumb drive. any user can pull off and use or post the footage anywhere. It never gets uploaded to tesla, only snapshots and telemetry.
lol the anti tesla crew will downvote even the most basic facts.
But is it technically the user’s data, or is there some clause in Tesla car ownership that says it is Tesla the company’s data?
Forgive me I’m ignorant of the fine details. I purchased a Chevy Bolt but had been looking into a Tesla as an alternative until Elon tried to be the super-cool Twitter guy.
The ones from that guy who runs his own competing autonomous driving company who also refused to allow anyone else to perform the test with the car (which was all proven to be bullshit later because he was hitting the accelerator pedal)? There’s a lot of misinformation and FUD floating around out there.
Dan O’Dowd of Green Hill Software. Spent millions of dollars on a superbowl ad hitpiece and it backfired spectacularly. Although clearly there are still a few people that believe it. You should listen to the podcast with whole mars catalog of him trying to explain himself. Its really wild.
The first public release was much later than the smaller beta, which I had access to. And my reference to seven years was Josh Brown being killed by autopilot in 2016.
You’re working very hard in this thread to remain in the dark. You could take two seconds to look for yourself, but it seems like you won’t. Hell, they performed a recall because it was driving through stops. Something it’ll still do, of course, but they performed a recall.
Elon literally had to hit the brakes manually in a Livestream of the self driving tech as the car was going to go strait through a red light. Like less than a week ago… SOOOO safe, all the news stories of it killing people are fake!
That was the top google result with a ton of other articles. I’m sure that somehow doesn’t qualify and you’ll move the goalpost in response. Go read some Qanon Elon jizrag news. That’s where the real facts are.
And that’s an article about Autopilot which is a completely separate system. For someone with such strong opinions, you sure seem to lack even a basic understanding of the technology that you’re discussing here, but I’m sure you’ll just pull out more insults and keep making references to your current obsession, Musk, as if that makes your argument any more credible or factual.
Yup it’s so totally different. Sure, sure. Imma block you now bye. Go bullshit someone else, doesn’t look like anyone else is buying your musk cocksucking spam either tho.
The early alpha build not part of public release? That video? The one with the known regression in the model S?
That video was a demo of the new FSD beta 12 software, which is the first time a neural network was in complete control of the car, resulting in a massive reduction in code and overall smoothness. Did I mention the part where it was unreleased to the public? Maybe there’s a reason for that?
Other than that the car performed flawlessly in the entire 40 minute drive.
The recall was most definitely not for “driving through stops”. It was to fix the behavior of doing a “rolling stop”, which is something 99.5% of drivers do, which is how it learned to do that. Where do you see that it still does not make a complete stop at stop signs?
I’m not trying to remain in the dark here, I’m just presenting facts. I’m very open to change my mind on this situation entirely just give me the facts. You said there were thousands of these videos I’m just asking for evidence. I just get downvoted and nobody posts any of the evidence.
Im an AI professional and have been an FSD beta tester for almost 3 years with tens of thousands of miles logged. How can I possibly be the one “in the dark” here?
Or put another way by someone not desperate for Elon’s attention, not stopping. Driving through stops.
Where do you see that it still does not make a complete stop at stop signs?
Signs, lights, it’ll gladly not stop for any of them. Where do I see it? Real life. Actually owning one of these foolish gadgets for 5 years. Where do you see your examples?
Also, don’t send me brad templeton opinion pieces, he’s a complete hack and has outed himself as such many times. He does have a nice video explaining what he thinks of Tesla stans like you though. Did you watch that one, or do you only link his material when it’s convenient?
I’m just presenting facts
No you aren’t, you’re presenting a curated social media marketing campaign. Congrats, you fell for the ad. Do you think that beer is going to make you more attractive, too?
I’m very open to change my mind on this situation entirely
Ok. Tell us what evidence it would take for you to completely change your mind on this and realize Elon is a hack, running a dangerous con with low quality software being released to cars in the US and Canada? What evidence would you require to change your mind and accept that Tesla doesn’t properly test releases before they go out to customers?
I’m an AI professional
This has absolutely zero bearing on anything except that you’re probably extremely susceptible to Elon’s outright lies.
Lets not resort to name calling or personal attacks here. You stated there are “Thousands of videos” of FSD related accidents, I only asked for a few examples. Please tell me where it is you’re getting this information. Help me change my mind.
Do you understand what a “rolling stop” is? It is when you don’t come to a complete stop at a stop sign, you slow down to 0.5 or 1mph, check both ways and move through. This has been studied time and time again that practically NOBODY on the road comes to a full and complete stop at stop signs. That is how the FSD beta was working in earlier releases because thats how it learned to drive. NHTSA said they had to come to a complete stop so Tesla fixed it. You again said that Teslas were still rolling through stop signs and I’m once again asking where you got that information?
“Actually owning one of these foolish gadgets for 5 years” I’m guessing you’re trying to say you own a Tesla? You clearly don’t have FSD because if you did you’d know that it makes full stops 100% of the time. I certainly have doubts you actually do own a tesla because if someone spends 40-60 grand on something they consider a “Foolish Gadget” why on earth would they hold on to it for so long? Just sell it and get something else, move on with your life and don’t bash people who like their cars.
I’ve asked you, now 3 times now to present evidence. Video evidence of FSD doing dangerous things. Given that all teslas have 360 dashcams that are constantly recording and we live in an age of such ease of video sharing that really shouldn’t be a big ask if FSD is as dangerous as you’re implying. These incidents should be happening daily. That is what would change my mind. What would change your mind?
I bought my model Y in 2020 with FSD and emailed tesla for early beta access based on my engineering experience and the part of the country I’m located in. They granted it almost a year later and I’ve been driving with it almost every day since. Why on earth would you doubt that? Do you need some kind of evidence?
Lets not resort to name calling or personal attacks here
If you’re going to be a liar, I’m going to call you one.
Someone has already provided you samples and you contorted yourself trying to deny their existence still. That shows the caliber of person you are.
Do you understand what a “rolling stop” is?
Do you understand what a red light and a stop sign are? See, traffic control devices are to be obeyed properly, and creating software that intentionally breaks the law is irresponsible at best. Only a clown would attempt to defend this. Meanwhile, you’re ignoring Elon’s own video from a week ago because it instantly disproves your insane position.
I’m guessing you’re trying to say you own a Tesla?
I did. I learned my lesson and am a proud one-and-done former tesla owner.
You clearly don’t have FSD
I did. Swing and a miss.
it makes full stops 100% of the time
Except, you know, the fucking recall proves it didn’t. And it still doesn’t after the recall. And of course, it misses traffic control devices frequently, ignores them at speed, attempts to pull through them when stopped, etc. Please, do yourself a favor and end this now. Lying to me isn’t going to work.
if someone spends 40-60
2018 P3D with performance package. More like 70+, with EAP from the factory, and the $2k FSD upgrade when Elon was busy being an idiot about pricing. If you have any questions for someone that’s actually owned one, I’d be glad to answer them for you.
why on earth would they hold on to it for so long?
Waiting for my replacement.
don’t bash people who like their cars.
I didn’t. I bashed you for being a liar.
I’ve asked you, now 3 times now to present evidence.
I asked what evidence would change your mind, and I see you entirely dodged that question. Because there is none. There’s nothing that would change your mind, because your mind is made up. It’s religion, and you don’t convince someone their religion is nonsense. I’m not surprised, of course. All liars behave like this- they pretend there’s something that could completely shift their world view, and change a core piece of their identity… like simping for Musk. But deep down, they know. There’s no such evidence. The racism, the sexual assaults, the financial grift, the hard right bullshit, the transphobia and homophobia, none of that changes your mind. The untested nature of AP and FSD, the release of “smart” summon that immediately started crashing into things, the fact they sent engineers down to Chuck Cook’s intersection for three months to program a single behavior. None of that sinks in when you believe in the religion of Tesla.
I bought my model Y in 2020
lmao, so absolutely didn’t have FSD longer than me. Delightful. Hysterical and delightful.
FSD was released in late 2020 yet you’re claiming you bought and used it in 2018? Who’s the liar now?
Also how can you have so much time to write your long winded rants about Musk, but can’t be bothered to actually discuss the technology nor provide a single shred of evidence backing up a single one of your claims?
I genuinely feel like I’m losing my mind here. Maybe that was your entire goal. Maybe its that you’re not listening and just like projecting your own opinions. I don’t know who or what hurt you or why you’re so angry but I’m done here. I’ve asked repeatedly for any sort of evidence as to why you feel this way, why you think FSD behaves this way and instead of providing anything you just escalate it and now we’re at name calling and calling me a liar. This is far from being a productive conversation. There’s so much to unpack here in this… whatever this is… you just posted I just really don’t … I can’t spend any more energy on it.
Given your posts and rampant Tesla fanboyism, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if you’re Elon himself just anxiously trying to save face.
Then again, Elon would just publicly sprout misinformation about it all so it probably isn’t. Still, surprising that people are just so obsessed with Tesla they can’t take the bad with the good.
You were provided evidence and disregard it and make excuses for it. It’s hard to have a discussion if you just exclude all evidence for it.
Think of it another way, you’re saying there’s absolutely no way that FSD has ever failed in its publicly available software, even with hundreds of thousands of cars on the road? Use a logic test on yourself and ask if that’s realistic.
Fsd makes a TON of mistakes. I’ve had the beta from the first public release. I don’t trust it to do anything more than lane holding and cruise control, with maybe some supervised lane changes. But it’s a beta. I understand that I am helping to test beta software.
FSD in its current form should not be given to everyone. Tesla had it right when they gave it only to proven drivers (okay, it would have been better to test with paid employees, but I digress).
FSD right now is like handing the keys to your 15 year old child and going to sleep in the back while they drive you home.
Look at the replies. I’m not going to sit and hand-pick them out for you, there’s plenty on there. Plenty of people either posting videos or stating first hand evidence of issues with FSD.
Not sure where you see a strawman either. But whatever, if you aren’t seeing any evidence despite the many posts and don’t see how impossible a perfect record is then you won’t be convinced with any evidence regardless or are just a troll.
I have looked at the replies and there are only a couple links about Autopilot crashes from users who think this is the same as FSD when it isn’t.
Your strawman is claiming that this user is saying FSD is perfect and never had a failure. Nobody is arguing that. You guys keep mentioning all the deaths related to FSD, yet nobody has been able to provide a single one as evidence.
I tried mate. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t force it to drink.
I guess you’re right then, if we exclude all the videos since they’re not FSD related, and all the written testimonials about FSD not working because they’re just written after all, then looks like FSD is indeed perfect and has no possible evidence for malfunctions. Praise be to Elon.
Please let me know where I stated anything inaccurate in the comment about the single incident that has been dug up in the 500k FSD cars and millions of miles traveled self-driving.
Also lets please keep this civil and not be name-calling. I hate Elon as much as anyone else and he deserves pretty much all the hate he gets. However it doesn’t change facts. Its not like he was responsible for writing even a single line of code in FSD or even designed or built any of the cars himself.
not all accidents are that violent. I would even accept a video of a simple fender bender to prove that FSD beta causes accidents with any sort of frequency. Those should be pretty common if FSD is dangerous as a lot of people are implying, right?
No I would never suggest that. The overwhelming consensus here is “FSD is dangerous. More dangerous than humans” Im asking for any proof of that here. So far, nothing. If they were getting in to accidents all the time there would be all kinds of footage, no? The fact is that even in this beta stage its already safer than human drivers. That apparently rubs people the wrong way for some reason. Don’t we all want safer roads?
Do you have any footage to share of FSD fender benders? If not how can you even claim it’s dangerous? Every car equipped with FSD hardware is equipped with 360 dashcams. It should be really easy to find some footage where FSD is at-fault for an accident.
no what im suggesting is that currently, as of today, they don’t. There will come a day when it does cause an accident. Any self driving system will be at risk of that as long as other humans share the road. What is most important is that we don’t lose sight of the accidents it prevents. As it stands right now hundreds are dying daily in auto accidents in the US and NONE of them so far are from self driving cars. Even with 500k+ Teslas in the hands of everyday people. Any effort to dismiss or shut down self driving car programs is an incredible disservice to road safety when theres no evidence to suggest its as or more dangerous to the average human driver.
They are for sure not balanced. Alfred might have become more realistic about Elon and his bullshit for guarantee he would never get his roadster. That doesn’t mean he’s balanced.
And this opinion is based on what? Obviously every online news source is concerned with increasing readership. But I’m not aware of any consistent factual issues in their reporting.
Honestly the quality of journalism in this article is pretty low. Some of the points are valid but most are just nitpicks about little opinion pieces at the ends of the articles. I don’t find these particularly valuable, and they sometimes contain some bad takes as pointed out here, but that’s not an issue of factual reporting. So the worst they’ve identified is a few minor omissions which, sure, but if you write thousands of articles that’s going to happen.
And by the way, this article is making the case that Electrek is deliberately biased towards Tesla, not away from them. So if anything it undermines your point.
I think the scandal about car referrals was pretty suspicious, but again, when you look at their reporting it comes down as pretty balanced. Perhaps you could argue they talk too much about Tesla but they cover the good and the bad. And I would say almost everyone in America has been talking about Tesla too much for quite some time.
Electrek has a long history of anti tesla clickbait. Take this with a grain of salt.
Teslas are factory equipped with a 360 degree dashcam yet we never see any footage of these alleged incidents.
Are you kidding me? Youtube is full of Tesla FSD/Autopilot doing batshit crazy things.
so can you provide a link of an accident caused by FSD?
Musk just did a 20 minute video that ended with it trying to drive into traffic.
this one? Where does it drive into traffic? https://youtu.be/aqsiWCLJ1ms?si=D9hbZtbC-XwtxjpX
The video ended when he made an “intervention” at a red light. I’m not watching whatever link that is because I’m not a masochist.
Here’s the specific timestamp of the incident you mentioned in case you wanted to actually see it: https://youtu.be/aqsiWCLJ1ms?t=1190 The car wanted to move through the intersection on a green left turn arrow. I’ve seen a lot of human drivers do the same. In any case, its fixed now and never was part of any public release.
The video didn’t end there, it was near the middle. What you’re referring to is a regression specifically with the HW3 model S that failed to recognize one of the red lights. Now I’m sure that sounds like a huge deal, but here’s the thing…
This was a demo of a very early alpha release of FSD 12 (current public release 11.4.7) representing a completely new and more efficient method of utilizing the neural network for driving and has already been fixed. It is not released to anyone outside of a select few Tesla employees. Other than that it performed flawlessly for over 40 minutes in a live demo.
I get that this is an alpha, but the problem with full self driving is that’s way worse than what users want. If chatgpt gave you perfect information for 40 minutes (it doesn’t) and then huge lies once, we’d be using it everywhere. You can validate the lies.
With FSD, that threshold means a lot of people would have terrible accidents. No amount of perfect driving outside of that window would make you feel very happy.
You realize that FSD is not an LLM, right?
If its “Way Worse” then where are all the accidents? All teslas have 360 dashcams. Where are all the accidents?!
it has to perform flawlessly 99.999999% of the time. The number of 9s matters. Otherwise, you are paying some moron to kill you and perhaps other people.
ok so im totally in agreement but 99.999999% is one accident per hundred million miles traveled. I dont think there should be any reasonable expectation that such a technology can ever possibly get that far without real world testing. Which is precisely where we are now. Maybe at 4 or 5 9s currently.
If you do actually want to have that level of safety, which lets be honest we all do, or ideally 100% safety, how would you propose such a system be tested and deemed safe if not how it’s currently being done?
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/aqsiWCLJ1ms?si=D9hbZtbC-XwtxjpX
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Your posts here show you’re not interested in reality, but I’ll leave a link anyway
https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-fsd-autopilot-crashes-investigations/
Excited to see your response about how this is all user error.
I’m sure you’re just going to downvote this and move on without reading but I’m going to post it anyway for posterity.
First, a little about me. I am a software engineer by trade with expertise in cloud and AI technologies. I have been an FSD beta tester since late 2020 with tens of thousands of incident-free miles logged on it.
I’m familiar with all of these incidents. Its great that they’re in chronological order, that will be important later.
I need to set some context and history because it confuses many people when they refer to the capabilities of autopilot and FSD. Autopilot and FSD (Full Self-Driving) are not the same thing. FSD is a $12,000 option on top of any Tesla, and no Tesla built prior to 2016 has the hardware capability to run FSD.
The second historical point is that FSD did not have any public release until mid-2022, with some waves of earlier releases going to the safest drivers starting in mid-2021. Prior to that it was exclusive to Tesla employees and select few trusted beta testers in specific areas. Any of the issues in this article prior to mid-2021 are completely irrelevant to the topic.
Tesla’s autopilot system is an LKAS (Lane keep assist system). This is the same as is offered in Honda (Honda Sensing), Nissan (Pro Pilot Assist), Subaru, Cadillac, etc. Its capabilities are limited to keeping you in your lane (via a front-facing camera) and maintaining distance to the car in front of you (via radar, or cameras in later models). It does not automatically change lanes. It does not navigate for you. It does not make turns or take exits. It does not understand most road signs. Until 2020 it did not even know what a red light was. It is a glorified cruise control and has always been presented as such. Tesla has never advertised this as any sort of “hands-off” system where the driver does not need to pay attention. They do not allow the driver to lose attention from the road in FSD either, requiring hands-on the wheel and constant torque as well as eyes on the road (via an interior camera) in order to work. If you are caught not paying attention enough times the system will disengage and even kick you out of the program with enough violations.
OK, now that being said, lets dig in:
November 24, 2022: FSD malfunction causes 8-car pile-up on Bay Bridge
April 22, 2022: Model Y in “summon mode” tries to drive through a $2 million jet
February 8, 2022: FSD nearly takes out bicyclist as occupants brag about system’s safety
December 6, 2021: Tesla accused of faking 2016 Full Self Driving video
March 17, 2021: Tesla on Autopilot slams into stationary Michigan cop car
June 1, 2020: Tesla Model 3 on Autopilot crashes into overturned truck
March 1, 2019: NHTSA, NTSB investigating trio of fatal Tesla crashes
May 7, 2016: First known fatality involving Tesla’s Autopilot system
So, there we go. FSD has been out to the public for a few years now to a massive fleet of vehicles, driving collectively millions upon millions of miles and this is the best we’ve got in terms of a list showing how “Dangerous” it is? That is pretty remarkable.
Excited to see your response.
Interesting, you wrote an entire dissertation on why you think this is all a false flag about Full Self Driving, but it seems to be mostly anecdotal or what you think is happening. Being a “software by trade” isn’t enough to face the facts that something fishy is 100% going on with Tesla’s autopilot system.
“The last time NHTSA released information on fatalities connected to Autopilot, in June 2022, it only tied three deaths to the technology. Less than a year later, the most recent numbers suggest 17 fatalities, with 11 of them happening since May 2022. The Post notes that the increase in the number of crashes happened alongside a rapid expansion of Tesla’s “Full Self-Driving” software from around 12,000 vehicles to almost 400,000 in about a year”
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44185487/report-tesla-autopilot-crashes-since-2019/#
You claim the timeline is important here and this is all post-2022.
Tbh the other side is also anecdotal. There’s no stats here.
What’s fishy about it? You realize 40,000 people die every year from car accidents, meaning 110 die every single day, and you’re referencing 17 fatalities spread out over a few years as some big crisis. This tech (from any manufacturer) isn’t going to prevent 100% of accidents, and there’s not much you can do when drivers willingly drive their car into the side of a semi just like they did before this technology existed.
I won’t argue AP, FSD, or any other system doesn’t have it’s issues but most of these responses are overblown sensationalism.
I am not a “Software by trade” that was a typo. Believe it or not I wrote that entire thing on mobile.
Correlation does not equal causation. Tesla sold a huge number more vehicles in the past 2 years than ever before. Also in 2019,2020 and part of 2021 not a lot of people were driving due to the pandemic.
And, yes, a lot of the first incident I covered there was mostly anecdotal or what I think is happening. Importantly, what I think is happening as someone with years and tens of thousands of miles of experience using FSD beta. I do not have the facts and also importantly, neither do you. I am interested to see what comes out of that court case, but from where I sit I do not think FSD was involved at all.
Please let me know where I have misrepresented facts, I will either correct them or cite sources.
Again, Teslas come with a factory installed 360 dashcam. It records all the time. Where are all of the videos of these FSD related incidents?
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Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/watch?v=jvO9_zTTsPg
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
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One of many many examples: https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-stops-tunnel-pileup-accidents-driver-says-fsd-enabled-video-2023-1?international=true
Tesla has a huge problem with phantom breaks.
See my huge post about that very accident right below. Do you have any other “Many many examples”?
Here is more: https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-fsd-autopilot-crashes-investigations/
How many do you want?
ffs that is the exact same article again. Please read my other comment (the huge one) let me know if anything doesn’t make sense or you find anything factually inaccurate.
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Wishful thinking that Tesla would publicly distribute footage of an accident caused by one of their cars…
Its saved on to a thumb drive. any user can pull off and use or post the footage anywhere. It never gets uploaded to tesla, only snapshots and telemetry.
lol the anti tesla crew will downvote even the most basic facts.
But is it technically the user’s data, or is there some clause in Tesla car ownership that says it is Tesla the company’s data?
Forgive me I’m ignorant of the fine details. I purchased a Chevy Bolt but had been looking into a Tesla as an alternative until Elon tried to be the super-cool Twitter guy.
It’s definitely the users data. There are a few tesla dashcam channels out there loaded with footage of other drivers acting like idiots.
I saw the videos of them running over infants in strollers. Does that count?
The ones from that guy who runs his own competing autonomous driving company who also refused to allow anyone else to perform the test with the car (which was all proven to be bullshit later because he was hitting the accelerator pedal)? There’s a lot of misinformation and FUD floating around out there.
Dan O’Dowd of Green Hill Software. Spent millions of dollars on a superbowl ad hitpiece and it backfired spectacularly. Although clearly there are still a few people that believe it. You should listen to the podcast with whole mars catalog of him trying to explain himself. Its really wild.
Tesla took him to court and won
on FSD? link please
Bud, we’ve seen literally thousands of videos of this happening, even from the Tesla simps. You’re seven years behind on your talking points.
FSD has only been out for less than 3 years.
The first public release was much later than the smaller beta, which I had access to. And my reference to seven years was Josh Brown being killed by autopilot in 2016.
Can you link a few? Something where FSD directly or indirectly causes an accident?
You’re working very hard in this thread to remain in the dark. You could take two seconds to look for yourself, but it seems like you won’t. Hell, they performed a recall because it was driving through stops. Something it’ll still do, of course, but they performed a recall.
Elon literally had to hit the brakes manually in a Livestream of the self driving tech as the car was going to go strait through a red light. Like less than a week ago… SOOOO safe, all the news stories of it killing people are fake!
Yeah. These people aren’t even good liars, but they try their hardest to defend the complete nonsense and lies.
Can you link to even a single news article about a death involving FSD?
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44185487/report-tesla-autopilot-crashes-since-2019/
That was the top google result with a ton of other articles. I’m sure that somehow doesn’t qualify and you’ll move the goalpost in response. Go read some Qanon Elon jizrag news. That’s where the real facts are.
And that’s an article about Autopilot which is a completely separate system. For someone with such strong opinions, you sure seem to lack even a basic understanding of the technology that you’re discussing here, but I’m sure you’ll just pull out more insults and keep making references to your current obsession, Musk, as if that makes your argument any more credible or factual.
Yup it’s so totally different. Sure, sure. Imma block you now bye. Go bullshit someone else, doesn’t look like anyone else is buying your musk cocksucking spam either tho.
The early alpha build not part of public release? That video? The one with the known regression in the model S?
That video was a demo of the new FSD beta 12 software, which is the first time a neural network was in complete control of the car, resulting in a massive reduction in code and overall smoothness. Did I mention the part where it was unreleased to the public? Maybe there’s a reason for that?
Other than that the car performed flawlessly in the entire 40 minute drive.
The recall was most definitely not for “driving through stops”. It was to fix the behavior of doing a “rolling stop”, which is something 99.5% of drivers do, which is how it learned to do that. Where do you see that it still does not make a complete stop at stop signs?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradtempleton/2022/02/01/feds-make-tesla-remove-rolling-stops-its-a-terrible-decision/?sh=67b344722111
I’m not trying to remain in the dark here, I’m just presenting facts. I’m very open to change my mind on this situation entirely just give me the facts. You said there were thousands of these videos I’m just asking for evidence. I just get downvoted and nobody posts any of the evidence.
Im an AI professional and have been an FSD beta tester for almost 3 years with tens of thousands of miles logged. How can I possibly be the one “in the dark” here?
Or put another way by someone not desperate for Elon’s attention, not stopping. Driving through stops.
Signs, lights, it’ll gladly not stop for any of them. Where do I see it? Real life. Actually owning one of these foolish gadgets for 5 years. Where do you see your examples?
Also, don’t send me brad templeton opinion pieces, he’s a complete hack and has outed himself as such many times. He does have a nice video explaining what he thinks of Tesla stans like you though. Did you watch that one, or do you only link his material when it’s convenient?
No you aren’t, you’re presenting a curated social media marketing campaign. Congrats, you fell for the ad. Do you think that beer is going to make you more attractive, too?
Ok. Tell us what evidence it would take for you to completely change your mind on this and realize Elon is a hack, running a dangerous con with low quality software being released to cars in the US and Canada? What evidence would you require to change your mind and accept that Tesla doesn’t properly test releases before they go out to customers?
This has absolutely zero bearing on anything except that you’re probably extremely susceptible to Elon’s outright lies.
Doubt.
The term is “delusion”.
Lets not resort to name calling or personal attacks here. You stated there are “Thousands of videos” of FSD related accidents, I only asked for a few examples. Please tell me where it is you’re getting this information. Help me change my mind.
Do you understand what a “rolling stop” is? It is when you don’t come to a complete stop at a stop sign, you slow down to 0.5 or 1mph, check both ways and move through. This has been studied time and time again that practically NOBODY on the road comes to a full and complete stop at stop signs. That is how the FSD beta was working in earlier releases because thats how it learned to drive. NHTSA said they had to come to a complete stop so Tesla fixed it. You again said that Teslas were still rolling through stop signs and I’m once again asking where you got that information?
“Actually owning one of these foolish gadgets for 5 years” I’m guessing you’re trying to say you own a Tesla? You clearly don’t have FSD because if you did you’d know that it makes full stops 100% of the time. I certainly have doubts you actually do own a tesla because if someone spends 40-60 grand on something they consider a “Foolish Gadget” why on earth would they hold on to it for so long? Just sell it and get something else, move on with your life and don’t bash people who like their cars.
I’ve asked you, now 3 times now to present evidence. Video evidence of FSD doing dangerous things. Given that all teslas have 360 dashcams that are constantly recording and we live in an age of such ease of video sharing that really shouldn’t be a big ask if FSD is as dangerous as you’re implying. These incidents should be happening daily. That is what would change my mind. What would change your mind?
I bought my model Y in 2020 with FSD and emailed tesla for early beta access based on my engineering experience and the part of the country I’m located in. They granted it almost a year later and I’ve been driving with it almost every day since. Why on earth would you doubt that? Do you need some kind of evidence?
If you’re going to be a liar, I’m going to call you one.
Someone has already provided you samples and you contorted yourself trying to deny their existence still. That shows the caliber of person you are.
Do you understand what a red light and a stop sign are? See, traffic control devices are to be obeyed properly, and creating software that intentionally breaks the law is irresponsible at best. Only a clown would attempt to defend this. Meanwhile, you’re ignoring Elon’s own video from a week ago because it instantly disproves your insane position.
I did. I learned my lesson and am a proud one-and-done former tesla owner.
I did. Swing and a miss.
Except, you know, the fucking recall proves it didn’t. And it still doesn’t after the recall. And of course, it misses traffic control devices frequently, ignores them at speed, attempts to pull through them when stopped, etc. Please, do yourself a favor and end this now. Lying to me isn’t going to work.
2018 P3D with performance package. More like 70+, with EAP from the factory, and the $2k FSD upgrade when Elon was busy being an idiot about pricing. If you have any questions for someone that’s actually owned one, I’d be glad to answer them for you.
Waiting for my replacement.
I didn’t. I bashed you for being a liar.
I asked what evidence would change your mind, and I see you entirely dodged that question. Because there is none. There’s nothing that would change your mind, because your mind is made up. It’s religion, and you don’t convince someone their religion is nonsense. I’m not surprised, of course. All liars behave like this- they pretend there’s something that could completely shift their world view, and change a core piece of their identity… like simping for Musk. But deep down, they know. There’s no such evidence. The racism, the sexual assaults, the financial grift, the hard right bullshit, the transphobia and homophobia, none of that changes your mind. The untested nature of AP and FSD, the release of “smart” summon that immediately started crashing into things, the fact they sent engineers down to Chuck Cook’s intersection for three months to program a single behavior. None of that sinks in when you believe in the religion of Tesla.
lmao, so absolutely didn’t have FSD longer than me. Delightful. Hysterical and delightful.
FSD was released in late 2020 yet you’re claiming you bought and used it in 2018? Who’s the liar now?
Also how can you have so much time to write your long winded rants about Musk, but can’t be bothered to actually discuss the technology nor provide a single shred of evidence backing up a single one of your claims?
I genuinely feel like I’m losing my mind here. Maybe that was your entire goal. Maybe its that you’re not listening and just like projecting your own opinions. I don’t know who or what hurt you or why you’re so angry but I’m done here. I’ve asked repeatedly for any sort of evidence as to why you feel this way, why you think FSD behaves this way and instead of providing anything you just escalate it and now we’re at name calling and calling me a liar. This is far from being a productive conversation. There’s so much to unpack here in this… whatever this is… you just posted I just really don’t … I can’t spend any more energy on it.
I sure do. I got pulled over for doing one. Because they’re not legal.
Correct. They’re not. And thats why there was a recall and that’s why FSD no longer does them.
Given your posts and rampant Tesla fanboyism, I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if you’re Elon himself just anxiously trying to save face.
Then again, Elon would just publicly sprout misinformation about it all so it probably isn’t. Still, surprising that people are just so obsessed with Tesla they can’t take the bad with the good.
all im asking for is some evidence of the bad. Nobody can provide it. It really shouldn’t be that hard.
You were provided evidence and disregard it and make excuses for it. It’s hard to have a discussion if you just exclude all evidence for it.
Think of it another way, you’re saying there’s absolutely no way that FSD has ever failed in its publicly available software, even with hundreds of thousands of cars on the road? Use a logic test on yourself and ask if that’s realistic.
Fsd makes a TON of mistakes. I’ve had the beta from the first public release. I don’t trust it to do anything more than lane holding and cruise control, with maybe some supervised lane changes. But it’s a beta. I understand that I am helping to test beta software.
FSD in its current form should not be given to everyone. Tesla had it right when they gave it only to proven drivers (okay, it would have been better to test with paid employees, but I digress).
FSD right now is like handing the keys to your 15 year old child and going to sleep in the back while they drive you home.
Can you point to this evidence as I don’t see it anywhere?
Also busting out a strawman argument one reply in to the discussion isn’t a good sign for the strength of your argument.
Look at the replies. I’m not going to sit and hand-pick them out for you, there’s plenty on there. Plenty of people either posting videos or stating first hand evidence of issues with FSD.
Not sure where you see a strawman either. But whatever, if you aren’t seeing any evidence despite the many posts and don’t see how impossible a perfect record is then you won’t be convinced with any evidence regardless or are just a troll.
I have looked at the replies and there are only a couple links about Autopilot crashes from users who think this is the same as FSD when it isn’t.
Your strawman is claiming that this user is saying FSD is perfect and never had a failure. Nobody is arguing that. You guys keep mentioning all the deaths related to FSD, yet nobody has been able to provide a single one as evidence.
I tried mate. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t force it to drink.
I guess you’re right then, if we exclude all the videos since they’re not FSD related, and all the written testimonials about FSD not working because they’re just written after all, then looks like FSD is indeed perfect and has no possible evidence for malfunctions. Praise be to Elon.
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Please let me know where I stated anything inaccurate in the comment about the single incident that has been dug up in the 500k FSD cars and millions of miles traveled self-driving.
Also lets please keep this civil and not be name-calling. I hate Elon as much as anyone else and he deserves pretty much all the hate he gets. However it doesn’t change facts. Its not like he was responsible for writing even a single line of code in FSD or even designed or built any of the cars himself.
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Ah yes, there’s no readily available footage of the dead bodies flying into the street or being crushed under the wheels so it’s made up. Of course.
not all accidents are that violent. I would even accept a video of a simple fender bender to prove that FSD beta causes accidents with any sort of frequency. Those should be pretty common if FSD is dangerous as a lot of people are implying, right?
Wait, are you now suggesting you won’t accept that Teslas with FSD ever get into accidents without video evidence? FSD is perfect?
No I would never suggest that. The overwhelming consensus here is “FSD is dangerous. More dangerous than humans” Im asking for any proof of that here. So far, nothing. If they were getting in to accidents all the time there would be all kinds of footage, no? The fact is that even in this beta stage its already safer than human drivers. That apparently rubs people the wrong way for some reason. Don’t we all want safer roads?
You sure did suggest that when you said you would even accept a fender bender.
Do you have any footage to share of FSD fender benders? If not how can you even claim it’s dangerous? Every car equipped with FSD hardware is equipped with 360 dashcams. It should be really easy to find some footage where FSD is at-fault for an accident.
Again- you’re suggesting they’re perfect by implying they don’t even get into fender benders.
no what im suggesting is that currently, as of today, they don’t. There will come a day when it does cause an accident. Any self driving system will be at risk of that as long as other humans share the road. What is most important is that we don’t lose sight of the accidents it prevents. As it stands right now hundreds are dying daily in auto accidents in the US and NONE of them so far are from self driving cars. Even with 500k+ Teslas in the hands of everyday people. Any effort to dismiss or shut down self driving car programs is an incredible disservice to road safety when theres no evidence to suggest its as or more dangerous to the average human driver.
Look, I don’t like children either but wanting more child mowing cars out on the road is pretty twisted.
Hilariously I’ve also seen them accused of a pro-Tesla bias. Personally I think they are pretty balanced.
They are for sure not balanced. Alfred might have become more realistic about Elon and his bullshit for guarantee he would never get his roadster. That doesn’t mean he’s balanced.
They do whatever gets them clicks. Facts do not matter.
And this opinion is based on what? Obviously every online news source is concerned with increasing readership. But I’m not aware of any consistent factual issues in their reporting.
https://www.thedrive.com/article/21456/the-dangerous-difference-between-electrek-journalism-and-truth
Honestly the quality of journalism in this article is pretty low. Some of the points are valid but most are just nitpicks about little opinion pieces at the ends of the articles. I don’t find these particularly valuable, and they sometimes contain some bad takes as pointed out here, but that’s not an issue of factual reporting. So the worst they’ve identified is a few minor omissions which, sure, but if you write thousands of articles that’s going to happen.
And by the way, this article is making the case that Electrek is deliberately biased towards Tesla, not away from them. So if anything it undermines your point.
I think the scandal about car referrals was pretty suspicious, but again, when you look at their reporting it comes down as pretty balanced. Perhaps you could argue they talk too much about Tesla but they cover the good and the bad. And I would say almost everyone in America has been talking about Tesla too much for quite some time.