You are entirely missing the point here. You seem so deluded by factionalism that you can’t see this as anything but a democrat vs Republican issue.
This is a HUMAN GODDAMN LIVES issue. A literal genocide is happening and you’re playing the whataboutism game. “Whataboutism” is used way too much as a phrase in discussions, but this is a textbook example of it.
“Biden is contributing to genocide.”
“But trump is a criminal.”
“Okay…but people are literally being slaughtered and starved on the US’s dime and the president is still voicing support in the face of the atrocities we are all witnessing.”
“But trump-“
Just stop. No one here likes trump. We understand stacking domestic chaos on top of this issue is no good. But we are faced with no good option right now. The entire argument for voting for democrats over republicans is usually “but we can push the democrats through shame to do what is right.” THAT IS WHAT THIS IS.
We’re not playing politics. We’re playing try to save some goddamn lives with civil disobedience.
Like, it’s something we all understand. But that doesn’t absolve the Biden admin’s full-dive involvement. This administration is complicit in genocide.
That doesn’t mean another president wouldn’t be as well. The US as a country and entity is complicit. But that’s what we’re trying to change by calling out the weaker link—because the point isn’t playing politics. It’s stopping the genocide. What’s happening right now in Gaza is untenable. And Biden is supposed to be the better option—again, yes, we all understand trump would not be better. But that doesn’t change what’s happening. We need to be able to pressure our representatives, especially when they claim to be morally superior to the “other” party. And especially when they’re more likely to change. We have Biden over the barrel because it’s an election year, and he’s seeing a ton of pressure from people he needs the votes of. Hats leverage we don’t typically have. We need to use it. Also, it’s fuckin genocide. I don’t know how else to say it. And it needs to stop. This isn’t us claiming anything except we don’t want what’s happening to continue. We’re not discussing the election. This supersedes it.
This is what we need to do. Because, the point is stopping the genocide. Not playing politics. And that’s what you just can’t see past. Like I said, we voted for Biden knowing he was supposed to be the more morally sound option. And here he is participating in genocide. We are trying to push the president who is vulnerable on this issue to do the right thing. That’s what needs to happen. BECAUSE THERE IS A FUCKING GENOCIDE TAKING PLACE. That fact isn’t going away, no matter how much of a disaster trump would be. This president is vulnerable on the issue, and the point isn’t politics. It’s stopping a goddamn genocide.
What is your point you’re making here? Because you’re not saying anything anyone else doesn’t know. But that doesn’t we shouldn’t be skewering Biden for this. Because he holds the reins of power. This is what we should be doing, if not more.
No, you’re still missing he point. The thread you’ve been involved in, this thread, has been “biden is complicit in genocide.” “Well trump is bad and would be worse.”
No one had said anything about the election when I jumped in except for you. But again, my point is this supersedes what’s happening in the election. You’re displaying factionalism. Democrat vs Republican is the arena you’re operating in.
There is a genocide happening. Full stop.
And it needs to end. That is where this conversation ends.
Saying, “well…but, the other candidate—“
No. This isn’t about candidates. This president is in office for almost another year. People are protesting what’s happening. The election only serves, in this situation, as leverage for us. Because this is bad timing for Biden because of the election. That’s its only involvement here. Except for your comments.
You can’t see past the poison that is the two party system to understand that it’s not even part of this discussion. Genocide. No. End it. That’s the conversation. And you keep bringing up a person not currently involved in it.
If that’s what the conversation I jumped into was, then this conversation and my point would be different. Check it out, I’ve made this point many times because I’ve seen this situation being leveraged to tilt the election away from Biden. BUT THAT IS A DIFFERENT DISCUSSION.
Making this conversation, where people are putting pressure on the president to save lives and stop a genocide, about biden’s opponent in the upcoming election is wrong. It’s a nuanced difference, but I can’t make it any more clear. You either get that or you don’t. And so far you don’t seem like you’re getting it.
Not missing the point. Yes he’s complicit, never said he wasn’t. I don’t know why you think that that is what I think. Ignoring what can happen in November is short sighted. I’m not saying to stop putting pressure, hell they need to ramp it up. You either get that, or you don’t, and so far it doesn’t seem like you’re getting it.
Jesus Christ, man. When the conversation is “_____ is ______.” and your entire argument is, “well, what about _____#2?” Then you’re not agreeing. You’re altering the topic of conversation, which runs cover for the initial topic by muddying the waters.
NOW you’re backtracking. But your contribution to the conversation was diverting blame. Until we all started calling you out. Maybe you do agree with us. But that wasn’t what you were saying.
Conversation regarding topics aren’t binary, taking into account alternatives is not muddying the waters. I’m not sure why you think I was back tracking, and you’re the only person who " called me out". Funny you could have said something along the lines of at least we agree on bidens handling of this and that would have been that.
This isn’t an attempt to be binary. And I jumped in to the end of a conversation you were having with someone else.
And I’m not saying that we’re still disagreeing about Biden. I’m trying to get you to understand the nuance of this subject. Not the subject of who’s culpable here, but the conversation itself is the subject I’ve been trying to get you to see sense on.
Yes, it’s great you agree that what’s happening is terrible. But…assuming that’s the end of the conversation? That is trying to make this conversation binary.
The nuance here is that you dragging the election—not even the election, but the other candidate in a future election— into a conversation about what the current govt is doing (regardless of what other US presidents have done and will continue to do with Israel) is ignoring the basic fact that this is our recourse. And what your initial, like, five contributions to the conversation were, was to bring up someone else.
Whether you agree with the general idea or not, you were running cover by muddying the waters. Which kinda makes you complicit in complicity.
This isn’t just a “you agree with us or you’re against us” situation. This is a “the way you engage with this topic is subtly undermining the people you’re claiming to support and muddying the waters of the conversation while undercutting the efficacy and possible future support of ending the genocide.”
I’ll try to go back into my comment history to find where I’ve taken a similar position to yours. But that’s what I mean by nuance. It’s not as simple as “agree. Convo over.” It’s, yes, I technically do agree that trump would be far worse for Palestine and piling domestic controversy after domestic controversy on top of the current laser focus on this one situation would derail the movement and diffuse the pressure. But right now, under this administration, we have a chance to pressure this admin to save some lives. I know you agree. That isn’t my point. My point is that how we discuss the topic matters, and you bringing up technically unrelated things in the conversation about the issue is problematic.
Again, it’s nuanced. We’re both technically agreeing on the overarching issue. But the conversation is the topic and that’s what I’m trying to get you to see. The fact that you think agreeing on biden’s problematic behavior would be the end of the conversation is further proof you’re not getting my point.
You are entirely missing the point here. You seem so deluded by factionalism that you can’t see this as anything but a democrat vs Republican issue.
This is a HUMAN GODDAMN LIVES issue. A literal genocide is happening and you’re playing the whataboutism game. “Whataboutism” is used way too much as a phrase in discussions, but this is a textbook example of it.
“Biden is contributing to genocide.”
“But trump is a criminal.”
“Okay…but people are literally being slaughtered and starved on the US’s dime and the president is still voicing support in the face of the atrocities we are all witnessing.”
“But trump-“
Just stop. No one here likes trump. We understand stacking domestic chaos on top of this issue is no good. But we are faced with no good option right now. The entire argument for voting for democrats over republicans is usually “but we can push the democrats through shame to do what is right.” THAT IS WHAT THIS IS.
We’re not playing politics. We’re playing try to save some goddamn lives with civil disobedience.
It’s not that “trump is a criminal” it’s that https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905
It will continue/be worse under trump.
Like, it’s something we all understand. But that doesn’t absolve the Biden admin’s full-dive involvement. This administration is complicit in genocide.
That doesn’t mean another president wouldn’t be as well. The US as a country and entity is complicit. But that’s what we’re trying to change by calling out the weaker link—because the point isn’t playing politics. It’s stopping the genocide. What’s happening right now in Gaza is untenable. And Biden is supposed to be the better option—again, yes, we all understand trump would not be better. But that doesn’t change what’s happening. We need to be able to pressure our representatives, especially when they claim to be morally superior to the “other” party. And especially when they’re more likely to change. We have Biden over the barrel because it’s an election year, and he’s seeing a ton of pressure from people he needs the votes of. Hats leverage we don’t typically have. We need to use it. Also, it’s fuckin genocide. I don’t know how else to say it. And it needs to stop. This isn’t us claiming anything except we don’t want what’s happening to continue. We’re not discussing the election. This supersedes it.
This is what we need to do. Because, the point is stopping the genocide. Not playing politics. And that’s what you just can’t see past. Like I said, we voted for Biden knowing he was supposed to be the more morally sound option. And here he is participating in genocide. We are trying to push the president who is vulnerable on this issue to do the right thing. That’s what needs to happen. BECAUSE THERE IS A FUCKING GENOCIDE TAKING PLACE. That fact isn’t going away, no matter how much of a disaster trump would be. This president is vulnerable on the issue, and the point isn’t politics. It’s stopping a goddamn genocide.
What is your point you’re making here? Because you’re not saying anything anyone else doesn’t know. But that doesn’t we shouldn’t be skewering Biden for this. Because he holds the reins of power. This is what we should be doing, if not more.
I fully agree, he needs to be held to a higher standard. A lot of people are making it out to be that biden shouldn’t be elected, so that “the dems learn”. Also it seems biden is listening. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/biden-administration-pauses-one-ammunition-shipment-to-israel-reason-unclear/ar-BB1lRDdt
No, you’re still missing he point. The thread you’ve been involved in, this thread, has been “biden is complicit in genocide.” “Well trump is bad and would be worse.”
No one had said anything about the election when I jumped in except for you. But again, my point is this supersedes what’s happening in the election. You’re displaying factionalism. Democrat vs Republican is the arena you’re operating in.
There is a genocide happening. Full stop.
And it needs to end. That is where this conversation ends.
Saying, “well…but, the other candidate—“
No. This isn’t about candidates. This president is in office for almost another year. People are protesting what’s happening. The election only serves, in this situation, as leverage for us. Because this is bad timing for Biden because of the election. That’s its only involvement here. Except for your comments.
You can’t see past the poison that is the two party system to understand that it’s not even part of this discussion. Genocide. No. End it. That’s the conversation. And you keep bringing up a person not currently involved in it.
If that’s what the conversation I jumped into was, then this conversation and my point would be different. Check it out, I’ve made this point many times because I’ve seen this situation being leveraged to tilt the election away from Biden. BUT THAT IS A DIFFERENT DISCUSSION.
Making this conversation, where people are putting pressure on the president to save lives and stop a genocide, about biden’s opponent in the upcoming election is wrong. It’s a nuanced difference, but I can’t make it any more clear. You either get that or you don’t. And so far you don’t seem like you’re getting it.
Not missing the point. Yes he’s complicit, never said he wasn’t. I don’t know why you think that that is what I think. Ignoring what can happen in November is short sighted. I’m not saying to stop putting pressure, hell they need to ramp it up. You either get that, or you don’t, and so far it doesn’t seem like you’re getting it.
Jesus Christ, man. When the conversation is “_____ is ______.” and your entire argument is, “well, what about _____#2?” Then you’re not agreeing. You’re altering the topic of conversation, which runs cover for the initial topic by muddying the waters.
NOW you’re backtracking. But your contribution to the conversation was diverting blame. Until we all started calling you out. Maybe you do agree with us. But that wasn’t what you were saying.
Conversation regarding topics aren’t binary, taking into account alternatives is not muddying the waters. I’m not sure why you think I was back tracking, and you’re the only person who " called me out". Funny you could have said something along the lines of at least we agree on bidens handling of this and that would have been that.
This isn’t an attempt to be binary. And I jumped in to the end of a conversation you were having with someone else.
And I’m not saying that we’re still disagreeing about Biden. I’m trying to get you to understand the nuance of this subject. Not the subject of who’s culpable here, but the conversation itself is the subject I’ve been trying to get you to see sense on.
Yes, it’s great you agree that what’s happening is terrible. But…assuming that’s the end of the conversation? That is trying to make this conversation binary.
The nuance here is that you dragging the election—not even the election, but the other candidate in a future election— into a conversation about what the current govt is doing (regardless of what other US presidents have done and will continue to do with Israel) is ignoring the basic fact that this is our recourse. And what your initial, like, five contributions to the conversation were, was to bring up someone else.
Whether you agree with the general idea or not, you were running cover by muddying the waters. Which kinda makes you complicit in complicity.
This isn’t just a “you agree with us or you’re against us” situation. This is a “the way you engage with this topic is subtly undermining the people you’re claiming to support and muddying the waters of the conversation while undercutting the efficacy and possible future support of ending the genocide.”
I’ll try to go back into my comment history to find where I’ve taken a similar position to yours. But that’s what I mean by nuance. It’s not as simple as “agree. Convo over.” It’s, yes, I technically do agree that trump would be far worse for Palestine and piling domestic controversy after domestic controversy on top of the current laser focus on this one situation would derail the movement and diffuse the pressure. But right now, under this administration, we have a chance to pressure this admin to save some lives. I know you agree. That isn’t my point. My point is that how we discuss the topic matters, and you bringing up technically unrelated things in the conversation about the issue is problematic.
Again, it’s nuanced. We’re both technically agreeing on the overarching issue. But the conversation is the topic and that’s what I’m trying to get you to see. The fact that you think agreeing on biden’s problematic behavior would be the end of the conversation is further proof you’re not getting my point.