It has everything to do with capitalism because it systemically enables this sort of exploitation. People act based on the systemic pressures they’re exposed to.
I don’t think it does enable this sort of exploitation. I think the exploitation cannot be avoided, in either capitalist or any other society, including communist.
People act based on the systemic pressures they’re exposed to.
I think there is no system that can avoid the basic functions of biological life which includes the strong praying on the weak. Big fish eats little fish. This is life, regardless of what system evolves on top of it.
No system can entirely eliminate negative human qualities, but they certainly can mitigate them. The same reason you don’t bring an alcoholic to a bar is why you don’t want to introduce capitalism into a society. An alcoholic might be prone to drinking, but can lead a normal life if they’re not exposed to temptation of alcohol. The same way, a society can function much better once capitalist incentives are removed.
In fact, we have definitive proof that exploitation in a capitalist society is far worse because we can look at USSR and what happened after. Under the soviet system, everyone had housing, food, healthcare, education and jobs guaranteed to them. Everyone had over 20 days vacation, and retirement guaranteed by 60. Nobody worried about losing their job and ending up on the street or not being able to retire in dignity.
There were no oligarchs in USSR because you couldn’t accumulate wealth the way you can under capitalism. If you look at all the leaders USSR had, they all came from regular working class families. That was possible because everybody got the same education and same opportunity.
Once USSR collapsed though, oligarchs appeared overnight, and incredible amounts of corruption followed. This study shows that unprecedented mortality crisis struck Eastern Europe during the 1990s, causing around 7 million excess deaths. The first quantitative analysis of the association between deindustrialization and mortality in Eastern Europe.
That’s what capitalism managed to accomplish in only a few years.
Furthermore, here are a few academic studies on USSR showing what life was like.
Professor of Economic History, Robert C. Allen, concludes in his study without the 1917 revolution is directly responsible for rapid growth that made the achievements listed above possilbe:
Study demonstrating the steady increase in quality of life during the Soviet period (including under Stalin). Includes the fact that Soviet life expectancy grew faster than any other nation recorded at the time:
A large study using world bank data analyzing the quality of life in Capitalist vs Socialist countries and finds overwhelmingly at similar levels of development with socialism bringing better quality of life:
This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development.
Adult mortality increased enormously in Russia and other countries of the former Soviet Union when the Soviet system collapsed 30 years ago. https://archive.ph/9Z12u
My point is that this isn’t a binary situation, but rather a spectrum. Some systems do a better job than others in mitigating these problems. In general, a system needs to be structured in such a way where personal interest aligns with the common interest. Capitalism does the opposite by creating competition between individuals at the cost of social cohesion.
this isn’t a binary situation, but rather a spectrum
I disagree. It is binary, either the word is meaningfully applied in this context or it isn’t. You said that capitalism “enables” exploitation. Being alive enables exploitation. Capitalism may encourage exploitation, it may increase exploitation but I wouldn’t say it “enables” exploitation.
Unless you have some argument that capitalism somehow provides some specific cause to enable exploitation which is absent from all other systems, while all other systems also provide some different cause which also happens to enable exploitation, your statement that capitalism enables exploitation is incorrect. The specific cause that enables exploitation is being alive and is nothing specific to capitalism. Capitalism is not what enables exploitation. Capitalism does not enable exploitation.
Yes, capitalism enables exploitation by allowing people who own capital to decide working conditions for people who do not. This is why exploitation is seen everywhere capitalism has ever been tried. I’ve also gave you a concrete example contrasting communism in USSR and the transition to capitalism along with all the horrors that followed. You just proceeded to ignore that.
@rah@yogthos That’s literally the system Americans live under right now. It would be best if workers had a say in the place they spend most of their waking hours in!
It has everything to do with capitalism because it systemically enables this sort of exploitation. People act based on the systemic pressures they’re exposed to.
I don’t think it does enable this sort of exploitation. I think the exploitation cannot be avoided, in either capitalist or any other society, including communist.
I think there is no system that can avoid the basic functions of biological life which includes the strong praying on the weak. Big fish eats little fish. This is life, regardless of what system evolves on top of it.
No system can entirely eliminate negative human qualities, but they certainly can mitigate them. The same reason you don’t bring an alcoholic to a bar is why you don’t want to introduce capitalism into a society. An alcoholic might be prone to drinking, but can lead a normal life if they’re not exposed to temptation of alcohol. The same way, a society can function much better once capitalist incentives are removed.
In fact, we have definitive proof that exploitation in a capitalist society is far worse because we can look at USSR and what happened after. Under the soviet system, everyone had housing, food, healthcare, education and jobs guaranteed to them. Everyone had over 20 days vacation, and retirement guaranteed by 60. Nobody worried about losing their job and ending up on the street or not being able to retire in dignity.
There were no oligarchs in USSR because you couldn’t accumulate wealth the way you can under capitalism. If you look at all the leaders USSR had, they all came from regular working class families. That was possible because everybody got the same education and same opportunity.
Once USSR collapsed though, oligarchs appeared overnight, and incredible amounts of corruption followed. This study shows that unprecedented mortality crisis struck Eastern Europe during the 1990s, causing around 7 million excess deaths. The first quantitative analysis of the association between deindustrialization and mortality in Eastern Europe.
That’s what capitalism managed to accomplish in only a few years.
Furthermore, here are a few academic studies on USSR showing what life was like.
Professor of Economic History, Robert C. Allen, concludes in his study without the 1917 revolution is directly responsible for rapid growth that made the achievements listed above possilbe:
Study demonstrating the steady increase in quality of life during the Soviet period (including under Stalin). Includes the fact that Soviet life expectancy grew faster than any other nation recorded at the time:
A large study using world bank data analyzing the quality of life in Capitalist vs Socialist countries and finds overwhelmingly at similar levels of development with socialism bringing better quality of life:
This study compared capitalist and socialist countries in measures of the physical quality of life (PQL), taking into account the level of economic development.
Finally, we can look at how do people who lived under communism feel once that they got a taste of capitalism
Adult mortality increased enormously in Russia and other countries of the former Soviet Union when the Soviet system collapsed 30 years ago. https://archive.ph/9Z12u
I’m glad we agree.
My point is that this isn’t a binary situation, but rather a spectrum. Some systems do a better job than others in mitigating these problems. In general, a system needs to be structured in such a way where personal interest aligns with the common interest. Capitalism does the opposite by creating competition between individuals at the cost of social cohesion.
I disagree. It is binary, either the word is meaningfully applied in this context or it isn’t. You said that capitalism “enables” exploitation. Being alive enables exploitation. Capitalism may encourage exploitation, it may increase exploitation but I wouldn’t say it “enables” exploitation.
Unless you have some argument that capitalism somehow provides some specific cause to enable exploitation which is absent from all other systems, while all other systems also provide some different cause which also happens to enable exploitation, your statement that capitalism enables exploitation is incorrect. The specific cause that enables exploitation is being alive and is nothing specific to capitalism. Capitalism is not what enables exploitation. Capitalism does not enable exploitation.
Yes, capitalism enables exploitation by allowing people who own capital to decide working conditions for people who do not. This is why exploitation is seen everywhere capitalism has ever been tried. I’ve also gave you a concrete example contrasting communism in USSR and the transition to capitalism along with all the horrors that followed. You just proceeded to ignore that.
People deciding working conditions for others is not absent from all other systems.
@rah @yogthos That’s literally the system Americans live under right now. It would be best if workers had a say in the place they spend most of their waking hours in!
Which is an argument nobody made here.