ExIsraeliAnarchist

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to just get up and move country? Or to try to immigrate from a war zone to a developed country? Have you seen how the (especially non white/european) people who try are being treated??
As an ex-Israeli I was lucky enough to be able to do it many many years ago because I have dual nationality and family elsewhere I was able to depend on, but most Israelis, never mind Palestinians, don’t have either, or the money to be able to afford to move, or a country that will allow them in.
Check your privilege.

I was lucky enough to have dual nationality and left many years ago, but then I always knew I would because I never felt like I fit in there, so I have no regrets, except for not leaving sooner - before the army would have been better, but I wasn’t able too get out of it.

Be prepared though - life as an immigrant and a foreigner can have it’s own challenges, as can being a Jew outside of Israel, and the “grass” - the political and social aspects of life might be different, but it isn’t necessarily greener - fascism is on the rise more or less everywhere you go, as is the cost of living.

You only get one life, as long as you aren’t harming anyone - do what’s best for you, and remember that to create a better society the workers of the world need to unite, so it doesn’t matter where you are physically, you can and should still be part of a force for change.

I don’t want to give too much personal information, but if you have any questions, I can do my best to answer.

It’s disingenuous to post those wikis without also posting these

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora

and because people can’t separate acknowledgment of reality from support of it - I don’t support Israel, which is occupying some Palestinian lands, and is undeniably oppressing Palestinians who deserve to be free. At the same time, other parts of the land are the ancestral land of the Jewish people, they didn’t just “decide” this or “turn up one day” out of nowhere, it’s historical fact. But you know what? Both can be and are true, and ignoring history doesn’t change that, it only makes your position weaker because you’re clearly speaking from ignorance, deliberate or otherwise, and don’t (or refuse to) understand the true complexity of this conflict and the history of the region.

There have been regular demonstrations going on for years, I know people who have been going pretty much every week. They get labelled out of touch bleeding heart traitors or generally ignored by the media (so that others don’t get encouraged to join). There have been more and more anti-protest laws being passed since 7.10, and the police are happy to use them, they’ll arrest relatives of those who were killed or who are still hostages who are there to call for change, it’s disgusting.
I know they’ve also been trying to target Bibi’s house with demonstrations, but he is hiding out with his rich friends and makes sure to only go back to Caesarea when he knows they aren’t there. It’s hard to organise under a fascist government, especially one that invents the spywares all the other governments buy. I hope they keep fighting.

Edit to be clear: yes, it is even harder to organise under occupation of another government, but I am not qualified to speak of the Palestinian experience, so I don’t.

Show me where I support zionism?
Knowing and acknowledging history doesn’t equal support for its results.
Whereas you literally just attach non-existent motives to a comment that challenges your narrow and wilfully ignorant world view so you can outright dismiss it because that’s easier than thinking a little more in depth about the reality and complexity of a situation you clearly know little about (and clearly aren’t interested in understanding)…
It’s not as if someone with relevant lived experience might actually know more than your sheltered ass… /s

So confidently incorrect and wilfully ignorant…

Try actually educating yourself
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel

You’re slightly and conveniently ignoring the actual colonisers of the region at that time - the British and French, and the parts they played in all of that (you can look to the partition of India or their other colonial “projects” for similar tactics on a bigger scale).

I am not justifying or defending the actions of the state of Israel against Palestine, but don’t say people don’t bother looking at the history and then only deliver a partial version of it.

Israelis and Palestinians both have a rightful place in the region, and have existed side by side continuously for thousands and thousands of years, the deep division that exists today is the product of colonial intervention dividing the locals and setting them against each other to make them all easier to conquer.

Edit to add that things haven’t changed much today, the British may no longer colonise the land, but all of the large superpowers are contributing financially and politically to continue to divide the local population rather than promote a peaceful solution, still because of vested financial interest - not only weapons R&D but also the massive gas reserves off the coast of Gaza their trying to get their hands on. Ignoring the bigger picture of this conflict doesn’t help anyone.

Oh, my criticism wasn’t of you, but of the person who replied to you with a load of nonsense. People tend to ignore/simplify/skew the history to fit their agenda (or are too lazy to make the kind of effort you are to understand), so it’s good to look at the actual documented history.

As for the Hagia Sophia comparison, I can see where you’re coming from, but this is all on a much bigger scale, which by default makes it much more complicated t figure out. But the first step is wanting to know, and you’re there, so good job!

That person really doesn’t seem to know what they’re talking about (Jews did not originate in Egypt, the UN didn’t “shove” anyone to the land, Jewish settlement has been continuous in the region, and after decades of pogroms which culminated in the Holocaust, many who were in the diaspora ended up returning since they didn’t feel safe anywhere else, but more importantly, like so many fleeing war and genocide today - were simply not welcomed by the “allies”. There is also no such argument that anyone who lives on that land qualifies as Jewish, that’s not how Judaism works, there are Israelis and Palestinians of all and no religion), I recommend reading some actual sources for yourself if you want to know more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_Judaism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora

And of course I have to defend myself in advance - despite all of the above, I am not denying that the state of Israel is occupying some lands illegally, and is oppressing and ethnically cleansing Palestine.
Both peoples have a rightful claim to parts of that land (and will, eventually, have to share other parts, or all die trying to be the only ones in control), and all deserve to live peacefully side by side on their homelands.

These protest have been going on for years.
The idea that Israelis generally support him is part of his media narrative, not reality.
The fact that the protests were getting bigger and louder before 7.10 is another reason war was allowed to happen (it keeps people distracted and united against an enemy that isn’t him, and the results are instant - many already saying to wait with holding him accountable until “after the war” as if he wouldn’t start another or make this one last until he made sure he couldn’t be removed).
When he went to visit the front lines, he didn’t only refuse to meat, but expelled reservists who were called in to duty who were known to be at protests or signed letters against him.
They have now also made it legal to shoot protestors with live ammo and arrest anyone suspected of “interfering with military operation” (this is mostly to target Palestinians and Arab-Israelis, but also Jewish protestors)
The Israeli government doesn’t represent the Israeli people.

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we were pretty much raised drenched in the same kind of propaganda

“pretty much” being the key words, since the white people who colonised SA had never set foot there before nor had any history or claim to the land, while that absolutely isn’t the case for Jewish people returning to their homeland.

I don’t support the state of Israel, but I hate this bullshit argument so much - where do you think the European Jews came from to Europe, and why?

They came from Israel (the region, not the state, which didn’t exist then) which they were expelled from, over generations, again and again, buy actual colonisers. And only wanted too return after centuries of pogroms that culminated in the holocaust, which was perpetrated by actual white supremacists.

Are racism, xenophobia, islamophobia and colourism all happening, and are influenced by white supremacy? Yes. Can Jews ever really be considered white supremacists? Not by any actual white supremacist, so no…

Is the state of Israel and the illegal settlements it supports now occupying some lands that aren’t theres and oppressing the Palestinians whos lands those are? Yes.

Should they give those lands back and let their rightful residents live on them in peace (and be willing to share the places that are culturally and historically to both)? Yes.

Is Israel an apartheid state that discriminates against its Arab citizens? Yes.

Do Palestinians deserve freedom? Yes.

Does any of this erase thousands of years of history and mean that Jews, from wherever the fuck they were expelled to in the diaspora don’t also have a rightful place on the land or are in any way comparable to actual colonisers who went to foreign lands they nor their ancestors had never set foot on and take them over? Absolutely fucking not.

More people really should actually study the history before making such ignorant claims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel

Mandatory service doesn’t mean they don’t get cushy jobs (if they want them) though.
Yair Netanyahu was never going anywhere near the front lines (he was in the Spokesperson’s Unit), and nor do many other children-of (not only politicians of course, but they do have a lot of influence), they get jobs at headquarters or some other nice safe place, the military bands/entertainment units are notoriously where many a nepo-baby has got their start…

Furthermore, there’s an unwritten rule the ultra-orthodox parties do not involve themselves or even voice an opinion on military matters

Only this isn’t true Deri (of Shas and convicted felon) is in the war cabinet for crying out loud.
You are really naive if you think they don’t get a say in everything that goes on, and deliberately ignoring reality if you can’t admit that there diversion of funds for their own causes and communities has deprived the rest of the country not only of the security it needed on 7.10, but of health and social and community funding for everyone else, for decades.

The amount of power the ultra orthodox hold is obscene.

a functioning government

Tell me you know nothing about Israeli politics without saying you know nothing about Israeli politics (the country is run by a bunch of literal criminals. Do they care about the Palestinians? No. But do they care about the Israelis who aren’t directly related to them, and even then not always? Also no. If someone told you “Israel the only democracy in the middle east” you’d call bullshit, and you’d be right, so don’t pull out a “functioning government” when it’s convenient. they are run by fascists, standing up to those in power is becoming harder and harder, just look at the last few elections and the reactions to protests)

How about they just stay in Israel and quit expanding into other peoples countries?

That’s fine, so how about people say that, instead of shit like “from the river to the sea”?

People making the point you just did are clearly not the one’s I’m talking about, and pretending like no one thinks and says out loud that Jews have no place in the region is basically gaslighting.

That person defined anti-semitism such that significant fraction of Jew are anti-semites by that definition.

and, as a Jewish anti-zionist, I disagreed with them.

But that still doesn’t change the fact that actual antisemites hide behind the excuse of anti-zionism to continue to spread antisemitism. the thread we’re commenting on is a live example of this, and minimising this fact helps the antisemites.

I do think there can be legitimate criticism of Israel and zionism that is not antisemitic (like accepting that Jews deserve a safe place to live on our ancestral land, but also that ethno-states are a bad thing), but I do agree that, especially online almost all anti-zionism comes from an antisemitic place, or at least an ignorant one.

It’s interesting how often people who oppose the existence of Israel (not to be confused with being rightfuly critical of its actions) are the first too make us feel unwelcome and tell Jew who facing antisemitism outside of Israel, that we just need to deal with it (and even expect it, acording to you), and if we don’t like it, we should just leave… But where is it we should be going…?
It’s almost as if what you really want is for Jews to just not exist.