I understand your attitude toward religion given the situation in your country at the moment. I come from a country not too far from yours that has similar problems with religion. And i used to think the same way that you do, and to some extent i still do. I have mellowed my views on this somewhat for purely pragmatic purposes. The reality is that religion is a very prevalent and powerful force in the world, and it’s not going away very soon. There are too many religious people in the world, especially in the global south, for us to adopt a hostile attitude toward them. We simply cannot afford to alienate so many people. And if for some of them (such as is the case in some Latin American countries) their religious views happen to motivate or reinforce their commitment to socialism and anti-imperialism, that is ultimately a good thing.
And yes, i still do believe that Marxism and religion do not fit together, because one is based in materialism and the other in idealism. But i also know that humans are perfectly capable of holding conflicting views at the same time - it’s called cognitive dissonance, though I suppose if you wanted to be harsh about it you could call it hypocrisy. Either way there are plenty of religious comrades who are excellent communists and my view is that it is up to them to square that circle, it’s not my problem. If they want to keep holding on to their religious beliefs for whatever reason, as long as they are still standing side by side with us in the same struggle i will refrain from being obnoxious or judgy to them, or act in an arrogant, dismissive way.
For now religion is not the primary contradiction that we face, though we should of course oppose and combat those aspects and manifestations of religion that stand against revolution, in support of the existing bourgeois order, or in promotion of reactionary ideas. Our goal is to build as large a movement as possible against capitalism and imperialism, with a disciplined and well organized vanguard party at its core. To do that we have to be inclusive to a degree and not too dogmatic about things that are not of primary importance to the struggle. Most importantly we have to adapt to local conditions. The position that the local communist party should take toward religion will be different from country to country.
First, i write this horrible wall of text to you because i know everything you write is nearly always worth reading and you don’t write this with troll intentions. But, while i agree with you in a broad sense about agitation, i think this attitude is wrong, specifically here.
Again, we are not out there, agitating in the crowd, but here in the explicitly marxist space, among people who are or want to be marxists, since when a core part of marxism become unmentionable? Why it is ok to have and voice religious sentiments here, as evidenced by religious communities, but not atheist one? Why i’m always having such conversations and having to read wall of texts assuming many things i did never said? Do i always have to write lenghty disclaimers (which will also get ignored)?
How did we even arrived at this point?
There are too many religious people in the world, especially in the global south, for us to adopt a hostile attitude toward them.
Again, how it is even hostile for people in the global south? I’m not writing for them here, also it is explicitly in line with successful communist parties of global south AES countries which all require atheism from their members.
their religious views happen to motivate or reinforce their commitment to socialism and anti-imperialism, that is ultimately a good thing.
Agree and we should went easy on them, but this too strike me as somewhat inapropriate. Those people can read, i assure you they will very fast discover what “dialectical materialism” means once they start to study it (millions did!). And how we should proceed? Lie to them about our stance for religion? Or maybe lie to ourselves? Or maybe abandon marxism for tactical purposes?
Again, just to write yet another disclaimer, i mostly agree with CPC religious politics, but CPC can allow to have such politics, since there is no organized influental religion there, and i will mention Falun Gong as example what happened when religion crossed the line.
Also, marxist should lift masses, not tail them. And it works, if you look at history, everywhere where marxist agitation and education proceeded, there was rise of atheism.
But i also know that humans are perfectly capable of holding conflicting views at the same time - it’s called cognitive dissonance, though I suppose if you wanted to be harsh about it you could call it hypocrisy.
I don’t want to be harsh, i am well aware this is quite common about various issues. It shouldn’t be reinforced though. Maybe even talked about and resolved?
Either way there are plenty of religious comrades who are excellent communists and my view is that it is up to them to square that circle, it’s not my problem. If they want to keep holding on to their religious beliefs for whatever reason, as long as they are still standing side by side with us in the same struggle i will refrain from being obnoxious or judgy to them, or act in an arrogant, dismissive way.
No problem with calling them “Comrades” (unlike “bruv” or some other reddit slang), but they do ask about religion, else we wouldn’t even have this conversation. And this here is the exact core problem. I noticed that every single mentioning of atheism and materialism is immediately labeled “arrogant and dismissive way”. How do you even want to explain materialism then when even the dryest mentions are always taken for an attack? (btw i don’t see our pretty cool muslim comrades here dogpiling me, they seem to be quite chill, it’s usually some west communists doing the paternalist “don’t alienate 3rd worlders” and even “as an atheist” trick).
For now religion is not the primary contradiction that we face
Agree, but again, it’s not about that, it’s specifically about materialist core of marxism, you can’t throw out the philosophical base it was build on and still claim its marxism. I’m tired already so i won’t write even more disclaimers, basically read Lenin about Party and Religion, Socialism and Religion, Materialism and Empiriocriticism and about Significance of Militant Materialism.
though we should of course oppose and combat those aspects and manifestations of religion that stand against revolution, in support of the existing bourgeois order, or in promotion of reactionary ideas.
Yeah that leaves us with only 95% of historical and current religious organizations.
Our goal is to build as large a movement as possible against capitalism and imperialism
Sounds fun unless it’s time to bash antiwar manifestation because some undesirable individuals participated in it.
with a disciplined and well organized vanguard party at its core.
Exactly. Somehow, every successful marxist vanguard party in history was and still is atheist. Also note that “vanguard party” and “movement” are not synonymous.
To do that we have to be inclusive to a degree and not too dogmatic about things that are not of primary importance to the struggle.
In movement or in vanguard party? In movement we should really accept everyone willing and active. In Party? Marxist party should not have people not accepting the dialectical materialism as core of marxism. It’s not dogmatic squabble about tactics, it’s the very base of theory, the entire meaning of progress to scientifical socialism, when we drop it we will become little better than utopians.
Most importantly we have to adapt to local conditions. The position that the local communist party should take toward religion will be different from country to country.
Fully agree. Note difference between principles and tactics.
I agree with you. I think everything you said here is correct, and i can’t argue against the points you are making. Indeed communists should not tail behind the masses, and you are also right to differentiate between the different requirements that we have of someone who is just “in the movement”, i.e. a supporter, a sympathizer or an ally, vs. the more strict requirements that we must impose on cadres. In this sense i think the CPC absolutely has the right approach…for China’s specific conditions where theistic religions are not so deeply rooted in the society and instead more atheistic philosophies like Taoism and Buddhism dominate (though these too are not rooted in materialism). In other countries the history and culture is different and thus, like i have said already, the communist party’s policies will have to be different too.
All i’m saying is that we needn’t always be so…pushy…for lack of a better word about this subject in spaces where we have a diverse international community. The reason why a lot of people get so touchy about when atheism is being pushed very aggressively and all religion gets painted with a broad brush is two fold in my opinion: on the one hand many of us have comrades who we care about and respect who do hold religious views, and it’s natural to get defensive even if we ourselves are atheists because there are a lot of reactionaries out there who use criticism of religion (usually of Islam specifically) as a cover for bigotry, racism, etc. On the other hand i think many communists are nervous about this subject because of the seeming impossibility of succeeding in building a popular movement while taking an uncompromising anti-religious stance.
There has been a lot of portrayal of the USSR in anti-communist propaganda as having persecuted religious people, and while that is not true historically, it still means we have to be careful not to give rhetorical ammunition to anti-communists that they can use to turn the masses against communism. The association of communism with atheism is one of the big reasons why it had such a hard time gaining a foothold in the Muslim world. That being said i do think it would be great if we also had an atheist community here where we can discuss such works as the ones you mentioned that elaborate on why a dialectical materialism world outlook logically leads to rejection of religion.
And i’m sorry for the, as you call it, “wall of text” type replies, but i think this is an important topic that deserves a thorough discussion. Thank you for taking the time to write such a well reasoned reply.
On the other hand i think many communists are nervous about this subject because of the seeming impossibility of succeeding in building a popular movement while taking an uncompromising anti-religious stance.
Weirdly enough, it succeeded many times in the past.
it still means we have to be careful not to give rhetorical ammunition to anti-communists that they can use to turn the masses against communism
Yeah, but then again, this is way from being only and worst nonsense reactionaries say and what reactionaries say should not and do not stop communist from saying other things, like we don’t stop mentioning collectivisation of means of production despite it being even more controversial etc. etc.
Important part get lost in the dust, class characteristics of religion as tool of opression.
The association of communism with atheism is one of the big reasons why it had such
Well that associacion is pretty easy to make because it is true, no matter how much we endorse religion, the fact still remains that the philosophy is still out there for everyone, it’s not illuminati conspiration theory. Btw communists telling lies about communism is yet another thing commonly used again communists, and sadly, it’s true somtimes especially nowadays when we have entire mass media against us. Still there should be difference between conspiration on a personal level for personal safety, tactics for agitation targeting certain groups and having unmentionables in internal discussion.
a hard time gaining a foothold in the Muslim world.
I wonder, how much did that really played a role, probably did, but then again if you look at history marxist in muslim countries also did not had problems with being materialists but then they were murdered by the west and western-backed fundamentalists (similar with South America, though there religion play lesser role). So it’s rather obvious that the next wave of resistence against empire will recruit from often the very same people (Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq etc.). Note despite the loud “based” cries those people, along with the ones on south America, are not marxists and even the label of “socialism” is more or less optimistical in most cases there.
Anyway this again strikes me as odd stance “muslims are not ready for ML because religion”. Also, this will come and bite us in the ass when the biggest contradiction of US imperialism gets resolved and the lesser ones will get more urgent. It will happen though, so i’m not actually this worried.
And i’m sorry for the, as you call it, “wall of text” type replies, but i think this is an important topic that deserves a thorough discussion.
It definitely is, especially there is a visible problem here
Because there is elephant in the room, what about alienating atheist comrades? It’s not 1500’s, there are millions upon millions of atheists, and contrary to the reddit stereotypes overwhelming most of them do not wear fedoras (again back to Marx, Engels, Lenin and others, all of them were hardline atheists but still wrote against vulgar liberal atheism) but are left leaning and could be influenced way easier if not getting banned and dogpiled when coming to reddit or lemmygrad. As you noted every discussion turns problematic rather fast, and in previous ones bans and dogpiles were rather one-sided. At least one person who clearly could used help got harshly rebuked and i never seen them since here. I’m basically the only one left that have strenght to speak and i do feel alienated in such cases.
Thank you for taking the time to write such a well reasoned reply.
Just wanted to say that both yours and @cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml replies in this thread was/is pretty much a reflection of the ongoing arguments I have had with myself about religion throughout the years.
It feels refreshing seeing it typed out and I am glad you both took it with the seriousness it deserved.
And of Islam, I also am very weary and hesitant mentioning it in western spaces. It faces a predicament where it either gets fetishized and patronized, or caricatured into Eurocentric “just as bad as Christianity” thought-terminating idioms. (In left-wing discourse of course, we all know of the right-wing propaganda.)
Denying the nuance it deserves for a “civilization“ spanning across Afro-Eurasia. Especially when we consider the role of European colonization in manipulating, and exterminating indigenous religions and cultural practices, which includes Islam.
Not saying that this happens here though, but just something I have observed generally in online Marxist spaces.
Everytime this religion vs Marxism debate flares up I am reminded of when a local comrade was deriding what they saw as online Western (muslim) Marxists fetishizing Islam, when it has always been an organized reactionary force in our own country, except maybe before colonization and some small currents during and after colonization. So for any Marxist here, saying Islam and Communism is compatible is like saying Capitalism does not contain contradictions.
Regardless, I do agree that we should be unapologetic about what Marxism says about religion. We should be clear about our stance, appreciate nuance where it matters and remember that on the other side of the screen is another person. Calling religion a “dumb opinion” like in the original comment in this thread is unproductive, when we consider that for many, religion-culture-identity-philosophy is the same thing, and merely calling it an “opinion” is insulting.
Thing is, we can’t tiptoe around some things, even trying hard as we can, sometimes it does erupt with force and the more we pretend there is no contradiction, the more it will erupt. We are not in the liberal marketplace of ideas where everything is equal, marxists do subscribe to a certain philosphy and ideology.
I understand your attitude toward religion given the situation in your country at the moment. I come from a country not too far from yours that has similar problems with religion. And i used to think the same way that you do, and to some extent i still do. I have mellowed my views on this somewhat for purely pragmatic purposes. The reality is that religion is a very prevalent and powerful force in the world, and it’s not going away very soon. There are too many religious people in the world, especially in the global south, for us to adopt a hostile attitude toward them. We simply cannot afford to alienate so many people. And if for some of them (such as is the case in some Latin American countries) their religious views happen to motivate or reinforce their commitment to socialism and anti-imperialism, that is ultimately a good thing.
And yes, i still do believe that Marxism and religion do not fit together, because one is based in materialism and the other in idealism. But i also know that humans are perfectly capable of holding conflicting views at the same time - it’s called cognitive dissonance, though I suppose if you wanted to be harsh about it you could call it hypocrisy. Either way there are plenty of religious comrades who are excellent communists and my view is that it is up to them to square that circle, it’s not my problem. If they want to keep holding on to their religious beliefs for whatever reason, as long as they are still standing side by side with us in the same struggle i will refrain from being obnoxious or judgy to them, or act in an arrogant, dismissive way.
For now religion is not the primary contradiction that we face, though we should of course oppose and combat those aspects and manifestations of religion that stand against revolution, in support of the existing bourgeois order, or in promotion of reactionary ideas. Our goal is to build as large a movement as possible against capitalism and imperialism, with a disciplined and well organized vanguard party at its core. To do that we have to be inclusive to a degree and not too dogmatic about things that are not of primary importance to the struggle. Most importantly we have to adapt to local conditions. The position that the local communist party should take toward religion will be different from country to country.
First, i write this horrible wall of text to you because i know everything you write is nearly always worth reading and you don’t write this with troll intentions. But, while i agree with you in a broad sense about agitation, i think this attitude is wrong, specifically here.
Again, we are not out there, agitating in the crowd, but here in the explicitly marxist space, among people who are or want to be marxists, since when a core part of marxism become unmentionable? Why it is ok to have and voice religious sentiments here, as evidenced by religious communities, but not atheist one? Why i’m always having such conversations and having to read wall of texts assuming many things i did never said? Do i always have to write lenghty disclaimers (which will also get ignored)?
How did we even arrived at this point?
Again, how it is even hostile for people in the global south? I’m not writing for them here, also it is explicitly in line with successful communist parties of global south AES countries which all require atheism from their members.
Agree and we should went easy on them, but this too strike me as somewhat inapropriate. Those people can read, i assure you they will very fast discover what “dialectical materialism” means once they start to study it (millions did!). And how we should proceed? Lie to them about our stance for religion? Or maybe lie to ourselves? Or maybe abandon marxism for tactical purposes?
Again, just to write yet another disclaimer, i mostly agree with CPC religious politics, but CPC can allow to have such politics, since there is no organized influental religion there, and i will mention Falun Gong as example what happened when religion crossed the line.
Also, marxist should lift masses, not tail them. And it works, if you look at history, everywhere where marxist agitation and education proceeded, there was rise of atheism.
I don’t want to be harsh, i am well aware this is quite common about various issues. It shouldn’t be reinforced though. Maybe even talked about and resolved?
No problem with calling them “Comrades” (unlike “bruv” or some other reddit slang), but they do ask about religion, else we wouldn’t even have this conversation. And this here is the exact core problem. I noticed that every single mentioning of atheism and materialism is immediately labeled “arrogant and dismissive way”. How do you even want to explain materialism then when even the dryest mentions are always taken for an attack? (btw i don’t see our pretty cool muslim comrades here dogpiling me, they seem to be quite chill, it’s usually some west communists doing the paternalist “don’t alienate 3rd worlders” and even “as an atheist” trick).
Agree, but again, it’s not about that, it’s specifically about materialist core of marxism, you can’t throw out the philosophical base it was build on and still claim its marxism. I’m tired already so i won’t write even more disclaimers, basically read Lenin about Party and Religion, Socialism and Religion, Materialism and Empiriocriticism and about Significance of Militant Materialism.
Yeah that leaves us with only 95% of historical and current religious organizations.
Sounds fun unless it’s time to bash antiwar manifestation because some undesirable individuals participated in it.
Exactly. Somehow, every successful marxist vanguard party in history was and still is atheist. Also note that “vanguard party” and “movement” are not synonymous.
In movement or in vanguard party? In movement we should really accept everyone willing and active. In Party? Marxist party should not have people not accepting the dialectical materialism as core of marxism. It’s not dogmatic squabble about tactics, it’s the very base of theory, the entire meaning of progress to scientifical socialism, when we drop it we will become little better than utopians.
Fully agree. Note difference between principles and tactics.
I agree with you. I think everything you said here is correct, and i can’t argue against the points you are making. Indeed communists should not tail behind the masses, and you are also right to differentiate between the different requirements that we have of someone who is just “in the movement”, i.e. a supporter, a sympathizer or an ally, vs. the more strict requirements that we must impose on cadres. In this sense i think the CPC absolutely has the right approach…for China’s specific conditions where theistic religions are not so deeply rooted in the society and instead more atheistic philosophies like Taoism and Buddhism dominate (though these too are not rooted in materialism). In other countries the history and culture is different and thus, like i have said already, the communist party’s policies will have to be different too.
All i’m saying is that we needn’t always be so…pushy…for lack of a better word about this subject in spaces where we have a diverse international community. The reason why a lot of people get so touchy about when atheism is being pushed very aggressively and all religion gets painted with a broad brush is two fold in my opinion: on the one hand many of us have comrades who we care about and respect who do hold religious views, and it’s natural to get defensive even if we ourselves are atheists because there are a lot of reactionaries out there who use criticism of religion (usually of Islam specifically) as a cover for bigotry, racism, etc. On the other hand i think many communists are nervous about this subject because of the seeming impossibility of succeeding in building a popular movement while taking an uncompromising anti-religious stance.
There has been a lot of portrayal of the USSR in anti-communist propaganda as having persecuted religious people, and while that is not true historically, it still means we have to be careful not to give rhetorical ammunition to anti-communists that they can use to turn the masses against communism. The association of communism with atheism is one of the big reasons why it had such a hard time gaining a foothold in the Muslim world. That being said i do think it would be great if we also had an atheist community here where we can discuss such works as the ones you mentioned that elaborate on why a dialectical materialism world outlook logically leads to rejection of religion.
And i’m sorry for the, as you call it, “wall of text” type replies, but i think this is an important topic that deserves a thorough discussion. Thank you for taking the time to write such a well reasoned reply.
Weirdly enough, it succeeded many times in the past.
Yeah, but then again, this is way from being only and worst nonsense reactionaries say and what reactionaries say should not and do not stop communist from saying other things, like we don’t stop mentioning collectivisation of means of production despite it being even more controversial etc. etc.
Important part get lost in the dust, class characteristics of religion as tool of opression.
Well that associacion is pretty easy to make because it is true, no matter how much we endorse religion, the fact still remains that the philosophy is still out there for everyone, it’s not illuminati conspiration theory. Btw communists telling lies about communism is yet another thing commonly used again communists, and sadly, it’s true somtimes especially nowadays when we have entire mass media against us. Still there should be difference between conspiration on a personal level for personal safety, tactics for agitation targeting certain groups and having unmentionables in internal discussion.
I wonder, how much did that really played a role, probably did, but then again if you look at history marxist in muslim countries also did not had problems with being materialists but then they were murdered by the west and western-backed fundamentalists (similar with South America, though there religion play lesser role). So it’s rather obvious that the next wave of resistence against empire will recruit from often the very same people (Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq etc.). Note despite the loud “based” cries those people, along with the ones on south America, are not marxists and even the label of “socialism” is more or less optimistical in most cases there.
Anyway this again strikes me as odd stance “muslims are not ready for ML because religion”. Also, this will come and bite us in the ass when the biggest contradiction of US imperialism gets resolved and the lesser ones will get more urgent. It will happen though, so i’m not actually this worried.
It definitely is, especially there is a visible problem here
Because there is elephant in the room, what about alienating atheist comrades? It’s not 1500’s, there are millions upon millions of atheists, and contrary to the reddit stereotypes overwhelming most of them do not wear fedoras (again back to Marx, Engels, Lenin and others, all of them were hardline atheists but still wrote against vulgar liberal atheism) but are left leaning and could be influenced way easier if not getting banned and dogpiled when coming to reddit or lemmygrad. As you noted every discussion turns problematic rather fast, and in previous ones bans and dogpiles were rather one-sided. At least one person who clearly could used help got harshly rebuked and i never seen them since here. I’m basically the only one left that have strenght to speak and i do feel alienated in such cases.
Likewise
Just wanted to say that both yours and @cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml replies in this thread was/is pretty much a reflection of the ongoing arguments I have had with myself about religion throughout the years.
It feels refreshing seeing it typed out and I am glad you both took it with the seriousness it deserved.
And of Islam, I also am very weary and hesitant mentioning it in western spaces. It faces a predicament where it either gets fetishized and patronized, or caricatured into Eurocentric “just as bad as Christianity” thought-terminating idioms. (In left-wing discourse of course, we all know of the right-wing propaganda.)
Denying the nuance it deserves for a “civilization“ spanning across Afro-Eurasia. Especially when we consider the role of European colonization in manipulating, and exterminating indigenous religions and cultural practices, which includes Islam.
Not saying that this happens here though, but just something I have observed generally in online Marxist spaces.
Everytime this religion vs Marxism debate flares up I am reminded of when a local comrade was deriding what they saw as online Western (muslim) Marxists fetishizing Islam, when it has always been an organized reactionary force in our own country, except maybe before colonization and some small currents during and after colonization. So for any Marxist here, saying Islam and Communism is compatible is like saying Capitalism does not contain contradictions.
Regardless, I do agree that we should be unapologetic about what Marxism says about religion. We should be clear about our stance, appreciate nuance where it matters and remember that on the other side of the screen is another person. Calling religion a “dumb opinion” like in the original comment in this thread is unproductive, when we consider that for many, religion-culture-identity-philosophy is the same thing, and merely calling it an “opinion” is insulting.
Agree about pretty much everything.
Thing is, we can’t tiptoe around some things, even trying hard as we can, sometimes it does erupt with force and the more we pretend there is no contradiction, the more it will erupt. We are not in the liberal marketplace of ideas where everything is equal, marxists do subscribe to a certain philosphy and ideology.