Been hearing a little about Nostr. Apparently it’s a protocol?
How did it differ from fediverse stuff like ActivityPub protocol?
What is the community size or population of Nostr users compared to Lemmy or Mastodon?
Do you use it?
I don’t know about the community. But from a protocol standpoint I think Nostr might actually be technically better.
At a high level, ActivityPub (and it’s implementations) imply there are many servers and to operate in a federated way, each server needs bidirectional communication. This is results in a exponential increase in traffic between servers and storage requirements. There’s also no requirements to identity so it’s up to implementations and currently that leads to many duplicate accounts.
Whereas, at a high level Nostr is a client and relay system. Your identity is constructed by public/private cryptographic keys (instead of as fractured identities registered on various different servers).
This is similar to email cryptographic signatures and also most blockchain implementations. Then content/posts are sent out to any number of message relays. Consumers of the content/posts do a map-reduce query against multiple relays to find content.
The benefits here is that if the relays go down, your identity is still safe as it’s manifested by your keys. This also means that there’s slightly less incentive for big centralized server dominance. Another benefit is that you don’t need bidirectional communication across all (most) relays thus reducing traffic and storage costs as the system scales.
With all that said. I have no idea what Nostr looks like in practice or what the community health looks like. Or what community moderation tools exist. But from a theoretical standpoint it’s a much more scalable architecture.
Good info thanks. I was looking for a technical answer but seem to be getting a few political polarized responses instead. I’d no idea.
Anyway, I’ll have to look up what a “map-reduce query” is. :)
Do you think there’s potential for a large, popular, and fast relay to become a sort of gatekeeper, with big centralized dominance? Like if Meta setup thousands of fast relays everywhere and started injecting advertisement attachments to user messages? Or collect info on each key so they can eventually ID and track you? Even if the user message are E2E encrypted, a relay could probably still attach an advertisement payload into the message somehow, no?
I really don’t know what I’m talking about. Just chatting really.
MapReduce is term pertaining to a software data retrieval architecture/process (also known as divide-and-conquer). The simple version is that instead of asking one super big database that knows “everything” you ask multiple smaller databases the same question i.e. “what all posts do you have from bob@domain.com?” (this is “mapping” a query to mutliple sources) and each database returns 0 or more results, then the query interface joins the results together (“reduce”) to a single response. This is common in “big data” because you can more efficiently optimize the query by parallelizing it across many machines/workers/nodes. There are additional optimizations that can be implemented such as caching common queries or data-sharding (items a-f on node 1, items g - k on node 2…).
I don’t think Nostr protocol is immune to the development of big centralized popular instances. Especially if something like Threads integrates and becomes the “default” client with millions of users over night. Users, in general, will always gravitate towards content and community. But, I think Nostr has a slight edge over ActivityPub in handling that problem by the user having no direct dependence on any one particular host.
I’ll have to read more into the Nostr protocol specifically as it pertains to privacy, tracking and content injection (ads).
I’m by no means an authority on ActivityPub nor Nostr, I apologize if that may have been surmised. I too am just chatting.
@plisken Technically I like all this stuff.
These are not my people though, it’s all shitcoin hype in the feed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA-jiiepOrE&t=6s
@JoeClu I think the protocol gets a lot right. It’s just a shame all the users are alt-right.
Reminds me of this essay https://nexus.blacksky.network/zine/00000001/confederal-protocols I think Nostr get’s much of that right.
Thanks, this is exactly what I’ve been thinking about as I’ve become more familiar with Fediverse protocols and applications.
The fact that a selling point is “censorship-resistant social media” makes me wonder how many right wing chuds are over there “just asking questions”.
Is “censorship-resistant social media” a misnomer for unmitigated hate speech? Is that the Implication you are making? Or do you know if it really is a magnet for right wingers?
It would be very disappointing for a potential superior technology to be stomped out prematurely due to a swelling of assumed extreme political polarization.
I don’t know anything about it, just found that to be a weird aspect to market on the home page.
The first thing I thought of is that many times complaining about censorship is a dog whistle by people who just want to spew hateful opinions.
Didn’t mean to imply anything about the protocol itself, I don’t have any tangible evidence of anything negative about the protocol or people maintaining it.
I don’t care for extremes of either persuasion, or the usdefaultusm of Reddit. Superior tech technology has absolutely no guarantee of success: Betamax was the better technically I’m told.
It’s Lemmy that’s getting all the airplay on Reddit, scarcely a mention of Nostr I’ve seen. Nostr Amethyst app on Android seems to work very snappily, but numbers may dictate.
It’s this messy [ find working instance - have instance declared verboten - repeat ] Lemmy cycle that’s really starting to annoy me. Had it happen three times so far. I’m going to put some serious effort into publicising Nostr once I’ve played with it, if only to even the fight.
I’m interested in hearing more about the Lemmy cycle thing that’s annoying you. If you’re willing, what happened? I joined lemmy.world and haven’t ventured anywhere else yet.
Sure. I was looking for a local instance that would be less usdefaultism, understanding that I would probably subscribe to general communities. 🤣😂
I couldn’t find anything on join-lemmy that was helpful but happened on a comment by sometime trying me to go to the fediverse site for helpful stuff. I found an instance https://lemmy.podycust.co.uk/ and tried to join that. I recall that it went reasonably and I entered my email address.
Shortly after I found I couldn’t log on. The page just gave the spinning-wait indicators. That instance was disappeared from join-lemmy and I had to go through the same process for another instance.
https://lemmy.tedomum.net/ was selected and I joined that. Shortly after that was declared verboten and removed from join-lemmy. I’m not picking these at random and with low user counts. I am directed.
Third time lucky. I found another one that’s accepting logon for three days in a row.
I do accept that Lemmy is Alpha and things change but the Devs are systematically removing email addresses and other sources of help from the join-Lemmy . Unironically they are stating that the first point of help is a sub on lemmy which is no fcuking use if you can’t log on and well used stable instances are being removed from the join-Lemmy listing because they are well used. Just look at the difflog on GitHub. People are trying to join these instances because they are going through the same pain that I am.
There’s no real world WhatsApp or Telegram etc group published for normal people. Most people don’t know matrix exists. I don’t like WhatsApp or Telegram but that’s the popular choice for groups. Asking for a published popular group resulted in me being told that we don’t have time to help people full stop. I’m not suggesting that the Devs are on a published group for a moment, but that we give a place for users to help themselves.
Meanwhile a whale is backing Nostr. And the apps work.
I reiterate that I understand Lemmy is Alpha but going out of your way to piss off the users and ‘not assisting’ any self help is like inviting Lennart Pottering to tea.
Ouch. That sounds like a pain in the arse. I joined lemmy world several days ago without issue. I joined due to the population size. I have encountered where lemmy.world has been down, slow, and hacked, in the few days I’ve been participating. So that’s not good and it lends credence to what you are experiencing.
I’ve been looking for a new instance myself due to the growing pains lemmy.world has experienced since the reddit exodus.
You are right, it makes no sense to not offer support outside of being logged into a lemmy instance. It reminds me of my internet ISP. They advertise if you need support, go to <some address.com>. Meanwhile I can’t even get onto the internet. Makes no sense.
Anyway, good luck to you. Hope to continue to see you around even if it’s on another instance.
Hey, sorry for the delay! Yes, stay in touch. Enjoyed the discourse!
I dunno the answers to your questions but Jack Dorsey loves it
Yeah that’s where I heard about it the other day. I never heard of it before. It doesn’t seem to be a big as ActivityPub networks.
You forgot to talk about crypto in your post.
Seriously, it’s like the Crypto Corral over there. At least last I checked.
Bitcoin, not crypto.
I don’t know what a Crypto Corral is. Do you mean it’s mostly crypto interested people? A few others have said it’s where right wingers hang out. Are right wingers crypto people? I’ve no idea.
I think you can find extremists on all platforms. But the thing that really turned me off is that 9/10 posts had to do with crypto. It’s just not my bag, and the folks on Nostr embrace it (even the platform itself, allowing bitcoin payments over the lightning network).
I guess that’s one of the selling points on how Jack will make money. Get a small percentage as a fee for each micro payment. I guess that’s their revenue model instead of advertisers. It makes sense to not be beholden to the whims of advertisers perception potential market loss (i.e., censor things or lose revenue). But like you, I’m totally not into the crypto thing.
Been hearing a little about Nostr.
Are you coming from Twitter? Jack got a bag in it and shilling it real hard and to integrate it with Bitcoin.
