I understand that point of view, but have a slightly more radical view in that divergence isn’t totalizing or instantaneous. Every time you sleep your brain changes, but we wouldn’t say that the person who wakes up is a different person than the one that went to sleep. You just changed a little bit.
Or a more personal example: when I got hit by a car I lost about three weeks of memory, I no longer had aphantasia, and had an identity crisis that eventually lead to me accepting myself as trans. Did I die when I was hit by that car? Did someone else wake up in my body? I don’t think so.
There’s certainly some point at which the amount of changes are great enough that you become someone else, but if there were two of me we’d still be the same person for a while.
My simulation doesn’t have to be perfect continuity, just whatever minimum is good enough.
I’m a bit out of my depth here,but while this sounds like a nice idea and all,how would I get to experience that nice immortality myself? I understand your point about sleep,but at least there you have some continuity,that being that your consciousness exists within your body,whereas a digital copy has little to no continuity with what’s here right now.
I mean,I get why it wouldn’t matter to other people,they’d see no difference,but if I go lights out in the physical world and the copy lives on in some metaverse heaven,how would that have saved me personally? For all intents and purposes what would be out there would be reflection taking my place in the world after I’m gone. A good copy,but for me it’s a copy nonetheless. I mean,it’s great that some copy of me would be existing out there having fun,but it’s not so great for me the human,being dead and all.
Okay, so this is predicated on the assumption that the self is fundamentally just data (memories, feelings, thoughts), and if a machine can simulate that data accurately enough then it will have have recreated that self even if the previous self is gone.
I believe worrying about if “I’m gone” if my data copy is alive is metaphysics. There is no “I” - there’s only the data I’m made of.
Going further, because the data of the self is always being corrupted and lost, worrying about perfection is also metaphysics. I am I even if my data is incomplete, because our dataforms are always changing anyway just the the course of living.
Ok,then I guess I believe in a soul or something like it apparently
Because I care more about the continuity of my consciousness rather than a data archive existing after my expiration date
Don’t get me wrong,it’s good for future generations to have access to that knowledge,but I can’t help but think that the spark within me that is alive right now would be gone
Hell,no way to know if either of us are wrong,and I do see your point,but I just think that unless you ensure the continuity of consciousness,what you’re gonna get is a new being,very similar to me, but never really “me” so to speak
Also,not to sift through old struggle sessions,but I can’t help but think a certain killer of Kissinger would not look favorably upon that take (or not,never interacted that much with the person)
I can’t write a good post but yeah, the phenomenal character of being (like, existing, experiencing, etc) is more than mere data.
Your brain is not a computer, putting it in a robot body would be so far from the embodied experience of being you that I don’t think even that would be “you”.
I believe worrying about if “I’m gone” if my data copy is alive is metaphysics. There is no “I” - there’s only the data I’m made of.
Not weighing in on the actual debate here, but just pointing out that “there is no I - there is only the data I’m made of” is also definitely metaphysics.
Well my self is also embodied in my actual flesh. I am my scars and gut flora and muscles and genetic predispositions.
My self isn’t even fully contained in my body! My self is also in my living space and my family and my friends and my coworkers and all my other social connections. I am I because of everything and everyone around me.
And I am also my historical and material context, what makes me “me” can’t be separated from my class position within this epoch of capitalism.
But those, too, can be simulated as more data points. I really don’t think there’s anything that can’t be represented as data.
Fully on board the ontic structural realism and extended cognition bus. Just pointing out that it absolutely is a metaphysical position, and that giving arguments for it is doing metaphysics.
Fair. Metaphysics actually seems to be a fuzzy term: it can mean studying the relationship between mind and matter i.e. what I’m doing (although really I’m saying that “mind” can not be separated from matter, they are the same thing) and speculation about scientifically unanswerable questions i.e. beyond physics. I only mean to say that there’s nothing nonphyiscal or immaterial about the self. It can be contained and explained purely through materialism.
I agree entirely; philosophy of science is philosophy enough, to paraphrase Quine. If you haven’t read it (and are interested in some pretty hard-core contemporary philosophical elucidation of this stuff), you might enjoy James Ladyman’s book Every Thing Must Go: Metaphysics Naturalized.
If you take it further. Even if there is no afterlife, you just die and it’s oblivion. Well over nearly infinite time, even in a universe where entropy dominates. Eventually, some tiny quantum tunneling event may create a new big bang. And a new universe. Over nearly infinite time, eventually you will be replicated in one of these universes nearly exactly. So there will never actually be oblivion.
But yeah just an interesting possibility if this holds true (which I’m not entirely sure).
i fundamentally disagree on continuity. as soon as there’s two of you there’s divergence.
I understand that point of view, but have a slightly more radical view in that divergence isn’t totalizing or instantaneous. Every time you sleep your brain changes, but we wouldn’t say that the person who wakes up is a different person than the one that went to sleep. You just changed a little bit.
Or a more personal example: when I got hit by a car I lost about three weeks of memory, I no longer had aphantasia, and had an identity crisis that eventually lead to me accepting myself as trans. Did I die when I was hit by that car? Did someone else wake up in my body? I don’t think so.
There’s certainly some point at which the amount of changes are great enough that you become someone else, but if there were two of me we’d still be the same person for a while.
My simulation doesn’t have to be perfect continuity, just whatever minimum is good enough.
I’m a bit out of my depth here,but while this sounds like a nice idea and all,how would I get to experience that nice immortality myself? I understand your point about sleep,but at least there you have some continuity,that being that your consciousness exists within your body,whereas a digital copy has little to no continuity with what’s here right now.
I mean,I get why it wouldn’t matter to other people,they’d see no difference,but if I go lights out in the physical world and the copy lives on in some metaverse heaven,how would that have saved me personally? For all intents and purposes what would be out there would be reflection taking my place in the world after I’m gone. A good copy,but for me it’s a copy nonetheless. I mean,it’s great that some copy of me would be existing out there having fun,but it’s not so great for me the human,being dead and all.
Okay, so this is predicated on the assumption that the self is fundamentally just data (memories, feelings, thoughts), and if a machine can simulate that data accurately enough then it will have have recreated that self even if the previous self is gone.
I believe worrying about if “I’m gone” if my data copy is alive is metaphysics. There is no “I” - there’s only the data I’m made of.
Going further, because the data of the self is always being corrupted and lost, worrying about perfection is also metaphysics. I am I even if my data is incomplete, because our dataforms are always changing anyway just the the course of living.
Ok,then I guess I believe in a soul or something like it apparently
Because I care more about the continuity of my consciousness rather than a data archive existing after my expiration date
Don’t get me wrong,it’s good for future generations to have access to that knowledge,but I can’t help but think that the spark within me that is alive right now would be gone
Hell,no way to know if either of us are wrong,and I do see your point,but I just think that unless you ensure the continuity of consciousness,what you’re gonna get is a new being,very similar to me, but never really “me” so to speak
Also,not to sift through old struggle sessions,but I can’t help but think a certain killer of Kissinger would not look favorably upon that take (or not,never interacted that much with the person)
I can’t write a good post but yeah, the phenomenal character of being (like, existing, experiencing, etc) is more than mere data.
Your brain is not a computer, putting it in a robot body would be so far from the embodied experience of being you that I don’t think even that would be “you”.
So, what about a clone body?
Again, thats perhaps the limit. Clone body for the original brain. Cloning the whole thing is no longer you.
If you have a clone brain that has all the same memories as the original brain then is there a difference?
Not weighing in on the actual debate here, but just pointing out that “there is no I - there is only the data I’m made of” is also definitely metaphysics.
Well my self is also embodied in my actual flesh. I am my scars and gut flora and muscles and genetic predispositions.
My self isn’t even fully contained in my body! My self is also in my living space and my family and my friends and my coworkers and all my other social connections. I am I because of everything and everyone around me.
And I am also my historical and material context, what makes me “me” can’t be separated from my class position within this epoch of capitalism.
But those, too, can be simulated as more data points. I really don’t think there’s anything that can’t be represented as data.
Fully on board the ontic structural realism and extended cognition bus. Just pointing out that it absolutely is a metaphysical position, and that giving arguments for it is doing metaphysics.
Fair. Metaphysics actually seems to be a fuzzy term: it can mean studying the relationship between mind and matter i.e. what I’m doing (although really I’m saying that “mind” can not be separated from matter, they are the same thing) and speculation about scientifically unanswerable questions i.e. beyond physics. I only mean to say that there’s nothing nonphyiscal or immaterial about the self. It can be contained and explained purely through materialism.
I agree entirely; philosophy of science is philosophy enough, to paraphrase Quine. If you haven’t read it (and are interested in some pretty hard-core contemporary philosophical elucidation of this stuff), you might enjoy James Ladyman’s book Every Thing Must Go: Metaphysics Naturalized.
I generally lean towards this myself.
If you take it further. Even if there is no afterlife, you just die and it’s oblivion. Well over nearly infinite time, even in a universe where entropy dominates. Eventually, some tiny quantum tunneling event may create a new big bang. And a new universe. Over nearly infinite time, eventually you will be replicated in one of these universes nearly exactly. So there will never actually be oblivion.
But yeah just an interesting possibility if this holds true (which I’m not entirely sure).
Yeah, but if you don’t know there is divergence you can’t tell