I want to float what’s perhaps a controversial opinion to see what everybody’s thoughts on the matter are. The general consensus is to try and be polite at all times. However, I will argue that there are necessary limits to politeness and that it can be counterproductive at times.
When somebody makes a comment in good faith, I think it’s important to engage with it in good faith. If there is a disagreement then it can be articulated in a clear and polite manner. The hope is that the discussion will be productive and everyone will learn something in the process.
On the other hand, when comments are made with the intention of trolling then trying to engage them as if they were made in good faith only plays into the hands of the troll. Addressing the points that the troll makes as if they had merit implicitly validates these points as if they need to be debated.
In my view, the proper response to trolls is ridicule. They have to be called out for what they are and we should not take the bait to attempt starting a debate with them. Instead, it’s better to simply make it clear that the opinion is garbage and not worth discussing.
The argument against being snarky is that it can drive people away, but I don’t know that there is much weight to that in practice. Anybody who’s read Lenin can see that his writing is full of snark, and he often ridiculed opportunists and revisionists. Clearly that didn’t hinder the Bolshevik movement all that much.
I think it’s important for us to express confidence in our views, and to be assertive about our positions. The facts are on our side, and we don’t need to act as if our position is the one that needs defending.
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What is Lemmygrad’s stance on the Role of Sharks
Well, that explains why this was posted:
😄
While they can try our patience at times, we should remember that since our goal is to create more communists, we should try to be courteous and engage respectfully. If not for their sake, then for everyone else on the sidelines who, seeing communists as diligent fighters for the betterment of all mankind, will come away realizing the communists have their best interests at heart.
Our ideals when engaging with liberals should be to follow the example of Fidel, Newton, Robeson, Liu Shiaoqi, Lenin (on his good days lol) and nameless others who knew how to engage with liberals, educating whilst not talking down to them.
Sure we all fail at this because our patience has its limits, but ‘dunk culture’ and alienating everyone you come into contact with, is something edgelords, ultralefts, and clout chasers / careerists strive for; not communists, and it’s not something to look up to.
I think Liu Shiaoqi, how to be a good communist, and fidel and newtons autobiographies really get this idea across well.
Edit, I agree with the two other posters here that recommended just reporting the trolls so admins can remove their comments. Nothing good comes from engaging with them in a negative way, but I also haven’t seen that hardly at all here: most of us still rightly use their trolling as an opportunity to educate them and others.
I agree with this, the angle I was trying to highlight is that ideally we have a balance where we’re not alienating potential communists while we avoid validating trolls. I think the most important part to keep in mind when replying to trolls is that the response for other people reading the thread as opposed to the troll. I very much agree with the approach of using troll comments as an education opportunity for others.
Definitely. Trolls really do want to ruin our day more than anything. IMO the best way to flip it on them, is not by lowering our rhetoric down to their level, but to help enlighten everyone else on the sidelines, as you say. Their goal is to de-platform communists, and the best way to frustrate those attempts, is to show them that they don’t have that power here, and are going to get even more spoonfuls of communist agitation the more they engage with us.
I think you’re exactly right, the hard part is often in not getting baited by these people. :)
Personally I think it’s fine to err on the side of snark. If someone runs away because of it they probably weren’t ready yet anyway.
I agree, it’s also instructive to look at how the right has been developing in my opinion. There is a ton of toxicity there, yet they’re growing and organizing a lot faster than we are on the left. I think that one reason is that being unapologetic and confident tends to resonate with people who are more likely to be active. While you might be losing people who are turned off by the aggressive style, chances are those people weren’t actually going to do anything anyways. Passive support only has so much value and any serious movement needs passionate people who are committed to a long term vision and who are willing to work to make it happen.
This is why big tent approaches tend to fail in my opinion. You end up with a diluted vision that doesn’t offend anyone and that doesn’t lead to any action. Incidentally, Lenin talks about this as well in terms of movement building. Bolsheviks ultimately rejected the idea of left unity and went with an uncompromising approach that ultimately culminated in the revolution.
I originally read the title as “The rule of Shark”
ha
I read it as “The rule of Shrek” 😭
(Insert joke about ogres and/or onions here)
Snark is a valid kind of response to trolls, even to well intentioned naive libs. Even when we can see some open minded libs showing gratitude to some of our comrades who patiently explaining things to them. This good cop bad cop tatics is much more useful than being overtly nice. They have to understand that liberal ideology is not the norm nor natural, it is something that will be protested and push backed. Only then the cool headed explanation will penetrate. Some might be put of by the first step, but the first step is necessary to shaken their perspective and filter out the trolls.
I agree fully. When I first began lurking Lemmygrad, this is what I generally saw people doing and it’s part of what convinced me to sign up and keep coming back.
I think a good way of understanding this is that liberals have very few differences with fascists, but liberalism is normalised. You wouldn’t be polite or non violent with a fascist. They either go jailed and in a reeducation camp or dead in a coffin.
There are cases of ignorance and people need to be educated, but there are cases of ideological afirmation which do not deserve any good response or treatment.
I think, though, that personally, beyond of this point as a movement or whatnot, it hurts one psychologically and because of that it should not be followed. It triggers rage and it is not a good thing to live by. Lenin may have been snarky, but he didn’t exchanged letters with 20 politically analphabet liberals a day. I think blocking is better since you won’t even produce anything good with them any way.
That’s a really good point, we live in a much more connected world today and places like online forums create dynamics where we end up engaging with a lot of people who are completely outside our regular social circles. I started blocking people who follow me around a couple of weeks ago and it definitely helped improve quality of interactions a lot.
I generally agree, but speaking for me it depends on a few factors.
One is where I am posting. I don’t post exclusively on lemmygrad communities, and I am aware that if I am posting about politics on other instance communities will probably meet with a more hostile reception. I have even noticed lemmy.ml has definitely been drifting more and more liberal recently. I try to engage in good faith there when I can not necessarily because I expect to change their mind but other people may become interested (I even maintain a second account there just so people don’t instantly disregard everything I say because of my instance). Whereas the liberals who wander into lemmygrad communities are either there to actively troll or very very lost; there’s not much of an audience that needs convincing because a lot of the audience will be well…us.
Obviously there is the content too. If they are willing to argue in good faith I am more inclined to have a polite discussion. I think it is important we recognize the difference in people who are actually interested in discussion and those who are just couching their trolls in more polite language. I have definitely been fooled by people in the latter category before I realized they weren’t even reading my replies to them and just using a mask of respectability to sound more appealing.
Speaking personally, I remember back when I still identified as a socdem and hadn’t really read theory much yet. I remember checking out /r/genzedong /r/genzhou and /r/sino specifically because I heard they were horrible places, and I wanted to see why. Not only did I find that not to be the case, I found them to be very friendly and welcome for the most part. I probably would have become a socialist regardless of reddit as I actually read books, but it definitely didn’t hurt.
I was actually thinking primarily of the lemmy.ml crowd when I made the post. There’s been a very noticeable shift towards liberal mainstream after the migration. I completely agree that it’s generally better for us to err on the side of giving people the benefit of the doubt and try engage in a friendly fashion if they’re willing to have a discussion. Ultimately we do want to deprogram as many people in the mainstream as we can.
I find liberals stop engaging as soon as I ask for a source for their claims that isn’t Western propaganda. 🤷🏿♂️
Amusingly, I had plenty of libs screech that I’m spreading Russian propaganda when I link to western mainstream sources that say things they don’t like to hear.
I agree with you. You’re often more patient than I can be.
I think enough regular liberals sound like trolls that I try to give the borderline cases a nice response before jumping right into being an asshole.
If they’re a troll, it’ll be pretty obvious to everyone at that point.
I’ll go farther, I think that people hate the way liberals (and its always liberals) try to engage in goodfaith debate with shitheads and monsters.
Comments made with the intention of trolling must be dunked on, so that lurking readers can see we aren’t going to play their games.
I like to take a two-pronged approach to trolls when we have the numbers: one person responds in exaggerated good faith for the benefit of the audience, while the rest swarm like pirannha. I try to fill whatever role is unfilled in the moment. If it’s already a shitfest, I become Communism Morpheus, explainer of worlds. If someone is already explaining worlds, I become another harpy in the swarm. For them, arguing becomes like trying to do a math test while 10 people take turns snapping rubberbands at you.
I make prodigious use of blocking but that takes work on my part that doesn’t really help anyone else. I don’t like tone policing, cancelling, or any of the other bs that tends to happen in online forums but I also understand it’s impossible to manage without banning trolls, and nearly impossible to manage with banning. There’s got to be a better way but I just don’t know what it is.
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