Very interesting (I’m fascinated by world religions/philosophies). The part about rebirth reminds me of Plato, who of course came much later. He has Socrates say in various dialogues that we inhabit a corrupted zone of the earth; those who lead good lives can after death be reborn in the higher, more beautiful regions of earth, while those who practice virtue and devote their lives to wisdom will after death leave their physical bodies and the physical world and go to live with God and the “forms.” But those who are vicious in life will be reborn as animals or plants; and if their sins are particularly vile, they will not even be allowed to live on earth, but will be punished in a region of fire at the center of the earth.
I remember coming across the second passage, or something like it, in a biography of Beethoven. He was apparently deeply moved by certain Hindu writings and copied out entire sections in his notebooks.
Yeah Vedic people or sadhus questioned this thing why we have inequality and plight but I think the earlier Aryans when colonized northern India they put aboriginal people into lower caste due to the fear of race mixing and of losing the priestly status . We might never know the whole truth but in Upanishads (what I had read) it has mixed messages , At one time it is speaking about forcing wives into sex and in other one connection between Brahman and atman , even the founder of Advaita had contradictory teachings . On one had he established the vedic principle of castes but he himself said when you reach the true Brahman . It loses distinction , perhaps he was confused .
I am Consciousness, I am Bliss, I am Shiva, I am Shiva.[note 15]
Without hate, without infatuation, without craving, without greed;
Neither arrogance, nor conceit, never jealous I am;
Neither dharma, nor wealth, neither lust, nor moksha am I;
I am Consciousness, I am Bliss, I am Shiva, I am Shiva.
Without sins, without merits, without elation, without sorrow;
Neither mantra, nor rituals, neither pilgrimage, nor Vedas;
Neither the experiencer, nor experienced, nor the experience am I,
I am Consciousness, I am Bliss, I am Shiva, I am Shiva.
Without fear, without death, without discrimination, without caste;
Neither father, nor mother, never born I am;
Neither kith, nor kin, neither teacher, nor student am I;
I am Consciousness, I am Bliss, I am Shiva, I am Shiva.
Without form, without figure, without resemblance am I;
Vitality of all senses, in everything I am;
Neither attached, nor released am I;
I am Consciousness, I am Bliss, I am Shiva, I am Shiva.
Again, very interesting, and extremely powerful poetry. Shiva is the personification of death, correct? And moksha means “illusion,” as in desire for transitory things? So the divine, by being beyond all opposites, is utterly simple and utterly beyond human comprehension. This is actually really beautiful and profound, if I’m understanding it right.
the earlier Aryans when colonized northern India they put aboriginal people into lower caste due to the fear of race mixing and of losing the priestly status
I’ve heard that some Hindutva types get around this by denying the Aryan invasions ever happened.
I’ve heard that some Hindutva types get around this by denying the Aryan invasions ever happened. Yes , they propagate aryans originated from India lol. I also think its a gross misunderstanding that Aryans “invaded” like they quashed every people , it might be plausible but how can these different languages of North India survive the onslaught of Sanskrit if the onslaught was massive. I think aryans rituals and norms got mixed up with local cultures and by these fusions a new society emerged which is vedic . There is a lot of confusion in that regard because southern people think (like here in the chat) Brahmins and upper caste don’t belong to India or a certain region. This is largely abhorrent and shouldn’t be practiced . India is largely mixed because of being a melting pot of different groups and people , Greeks , Kushans , Huns , Afghans , Turks , Babur all came and brought their culture and ethos . Indo aryans people brought their Vedas and theology. If we discard everything regarding Vedas ,Upanishads and the great epics then what should remain of India ? (the great dance , Indian classical music comes from Sama Veda )
Another thing yes , caste system existed from middle to late vedic age and it exists till now. The caste system is inbuilt into Hinduism because of ignorance and feudal mode of production in ancient society . Modern hindu groups are denying these allegations and its horrendous to justify it.
Shiva is a complicated god , he is destroyer of maya (avidya) or ignorance . Shivaism predates vedic religion and Siva mythologies and ethos were put into hindu puranas in late 600 CE. Shiva is actually not death but a man who won over maya (illusion of reality ) and he forever remains into this “bliss” state . He is poor , lives with ghosts , snakes , drinks poison . It is just to convey simple ethos and “brahman” is not with worldly pleasures and work. Brahman is gender less , formless , casteless and infinite. In Hinduism anything can be personal god (isharva) (some restrictions are obviously there ) . Shiva followers see Shiva as the absolute brahman , he has neither shape or gender (that what it is written by Sankara , he was a shivaite ) .
Moksha means liberation from cycle of birth and dying , here Sankara is saying there is some higher plain which goes beyond traditional concept of previous rituals and understanding .
Very interesting (I’m fascinated by world religions/philosophies). The part about rebirth reminds me of Plato, who of course came much later. He has Socrates say in various dialogues that we inhabit a corrupted zone of the earth; those who lead good lives can after death be reborn in the higher, more beautiful regions of earth, while those who practice virtue and devote their lives to wisdom will after death leave their physical bodies and the physical world and go to live with God and the “forms.” But those who are vicious in life will be reborn as animals or plants; and if their sins are particularly vile, they will not even be allowed to live on earth, but will be punished in a region of fire at the center of the earth.
I remember coming across the second passage, or something like it, in a biography of Beethoven. He was apparently deeply moved by certain Hindu writings and copied out entire sections in his notebooks.
Yeah Vedic people or sadhus questioned this thing why we have inequality and plight but I think the earlier Aryans when colonized northern India they put aboriginal people into lower caste due to the fear of race mixing and of losing the priestly status . We might never know the whole truth but in Upanishads (what I had read) it has mixed messages , At one time it is speaking about forcing wives into sex and in other one connection between Brahman and atman , even the founder of Advaita had contradictory teachings . On one had he established the vedic principle of castes but he himself said when you reach the true Brahman . It loses distinction , perhaps he was confused .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adi_Shankara
—Adi Shankara, Nirvana Shatakam, Hymns 3–6
Again, very interesting, and extremely powerful poetry. Shiva is the personification of death, correct? And moksha means “illusion,” as in desire for transitory things? So the divine, by being beyond all opposites, is utterly simple and utterly beyond human comprehension. This is actually really beautiful and profound, if I’m understanding it right.
I’ve heard that some Hindutva types get around this by denying the Aryan invasions ever happened.
I’ve heard that some Hindutva types get around this by denying the Aryan invasions ever happened. Yes , they propagate aryans originated from India lol. I also think its a gross misunderstanding that Aryans “invaded” like they quashed every people , it might be plausible but how can these different languages of North India survive the onslaught of Sanskrit if the onslaught was massive. I think aryans rituals and norms got mixed up with local cultures and by these fusions a new society emerged which is vedic . There is a lot of confusion in that regard because southern people think (like here in the chat) Brahmins and upper caste don’t belong to India or a certain region. This is largely abhorrent and shouldn’t be practiced . India is largely mixed because of being a melting pot of different groups and people , Greeks , Kushans , Huns , Afghans , Turks , Babur all came and brought their culture and ethos . Indo aryans people brought their Vedas and theology. If we discard everything regarding Vedas ,Upanishads and the great epics then what should remain of India ? (the great dance , Indian classical music comes from Sama Veda )
Another thing yes , caste system existed from middle to late vedic age and it exists till now. The caste system is inbuilt into Hinduism because of ignorance and feudal mode of production in ancient society . Modern hindu groups are denying these allegations and its horrendous to justify it.
Shiva is a complicated god , he is destroyer of maya (avidya) or ignorance . Shivaism predates vedic religion and Siva mythologies and ethos were put into hindu puranas in late 600 CE. Shiva is actually not death but a man who won over maya (illusion of reality ) and he forever remains into this “bliss” state . He is poor , lives with ghosts , snakes , drinks poison . It is just to convey simple ethos and “brahman” is not with worldly pleasures and work. Brahman is gender less , formless , casteless and infinite. In Hinduism anything can be personal god (isharva) (some restrictions are obviously there ) . Shiva followers see Shiva as the absolute brahman , he has neither shape or gender (that what it is written by Sankara , he was a shivaite ) .
Moksha means liberation from cycle of birth and dying , here Sankara is saying there is some higher plain which goes beyond traditional concept of previous rituals and understanding .